Talk:Lewes/Archive 1

Various

re: Tom Paine. I don't think he was ever in post in Grantham, but in fact in Alford Lincolnshire, from which post he was sacked. His office was in the Windmill Hotel but he reported to the Horncastle office. After re-instatement (in Lewes) he did re-visit the area.

Stephen Kirby Louth Lincs bob.cat@context.go-plus.net

I don't have a definitive reference, but it looks like he served as an apprentice exciseman in Grantham in 1762 and was appointed oto Alford in 1764 , from where indeed he got the sack for marking in his book that he had inspected goods, when infact he had only looked at the documentation accompanying the goods. Mintguy 10:07, 4 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Is there any point redlinking "torchlit procession"? Is that ever likely to be useful article? - Timmers 21:47, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

What is the significance of the picture of Lewe's railway station?

- Well it is a significant station in the route down the south coast. You have to change at Lewes to get to quite a few places, if you're coming from the East or West, for example from Brighton. The station is also very old, and has retained most of its original architecture from its conception. Besides that I have no idea. Perhaps a photo and paragraph of the Priory Ruins would be good as that is the next attraction to the castle. I learnt it was blown up by one of the kings but my history is very faint if anyone wants to write about this. - Ben, Lewesan

The "commercial centre" of Lewes, including the main street and virtually all shops, is on a hill! Unless floodwaters reached, say, 100 feet or more it could not possibly be "devastated" by flooding. 81.131.58.251 13:58, 20 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's not. The commercial centre of Lewes is, and has been for some 20 years, Cliffe High Street and the pedestrian precinct, which are only feet above the usual level of the river. The part of town up by the War Memorial used to be the commercial centre, but the move of the focus from there to the Cliffe was sudden and marked. Molly Mockford 22:31, 20 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

pronunciation?

Is it a silent 2nd 'e' as in Cowes or not? --JBellis 20:55, 18 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The 2nd 'e' is not silent, so "Lewes" is pronounced like "LEWiss" or "LEWess". Cheers, --A bit iffy 21:14, 18 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't agree with the diphthong /ju/ given in the pronunciation. It's not "L-yew-iss", it's "Loo-iss", isn't it? That's how most people in the South of England say it anyway. My IPA version would be /luːɪs/. Lonegroover (talk) 16:21, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with that. It is normally pronounced 'Loo-iss' - is it ever pronounced 'Loo-ess'? Anywikiuser (talk) 16:35, 22 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I've replaced the diphthong /ju:/ with a straight /u:/ Lonegroover (talk) 10:42, 23 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The vowel in the second syllable is a schwa - so you can't readily distinguish between 'Loo-iss' and 'Loo-ess'; although the closest approximation would be 'Lewis' (as in the Hebridean island, but with a less light S), because the W is distinctly audible in the usual pronunciation. The first syllable - which is strongly stressed - is definitely 'Loo' not 'Lyu'. My claim to know this stuff is that I'll have lived here 30 years next month. Who knows where the time goes? Molly Mockford (talk) 23:40, 24 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Lewes is not Chichester

Chichester was the original county town, where the diocese was and still is located. Lewes is one of those recent towns which have gained eminenence, like the individual riding towns of Yorkshire. Lewes owes its prominence to the splitting of Sussex, not the old intact form. Let's not get revisionist here. In another example, Bristol used to be part of Somerset until becoming its own county. Before that, Taunton was the singular seat of civil government. IP Address 10:01, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, Bristol was historially a city and county in its own right as the city of Bristol, in the county of Bristol, a status it has regained since the abolition of Avon. DWaterson 02:30, 23 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Bristol came about as a result of King Edward III as far as I reckon. Before then, it was Somerset. IP Address 05:29, 23 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In addition, Taunton was did not become the county town of Somerset until 1366. Prior to this the county town had Somerton and before that Ilchester. Anywikiuser (talk) 19:11, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong conclusions

You should look at the History of Sussex article under the heading Jurisdiction which gives the correct history of the county. You will see that:

The county court had been held at Lewes and Shoreham until 1086, when it was moved to Chichester. After several changes the act of 1504 arranged for it to be held alternately at Lewes and Chichester

It then goes on to talk about the ecclesiatical governance, calling them Private jurisdictions:

The chief ecclesiastical franchises were those of the Archbishop of Canterbury, of the bishop of Chichester, of the Saxon foundation of Bosham, where Bishop Wilfred had found the only gleam of Christianity in the county (Sussex was the last of the Saxon kingdoms to embrace Christianity), and of the votive abbey of Battle, founded by William the Conqueror. This abbey possessed, besides land in many other counties, the `Lowy of Battle,' a district extending for 3 miles (5 km) round the abbey.
The see of Chichester was co-extensive with the county, and has altered little
There were two archdeacons centred on Chichester and at Lewes; whose jurisdiction later became the basis for the division between East and West Sussex, the County Councils from 1888 having been based in those two towns

I don't think we can equate that with Bristol or Taunton, or anywhere else? English local governance has a lot of pecularities, almost all historical, never simple! Peter Shearan (talk) 10:26, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fireworks factory fire

I have removed the content about today's fire at a fireworks factory because it's not really in Lewes. News reports are saying it's near Halland, so I'll move it to the East Hoathly with Halland article (the closest there is - actually, the factory seems to be in the middle of nowhere). A bit iffy 21:55, 3 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Avalanche

Quote: "On 27 December 1836, an avalanche occurred in Lewes, the worst ever recorded in England." Jooler has changed "the United Kingdom" to "England", saying "(probably worse avalanches in Scotland as they have more mountains)". This sounds like guesswork to me! I used to have a copy of the Guinness Book of Records (unfortunately, it was lost in the Lewes floods of 2000) which definitely referred to the Lewes avalanche as the worst recorded in the UK. Does anybody else have a copy which includes this reference? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Molly Mockford (talk • contribs) 21:56, 14 February 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Oops - Molly Mockford 23:28, 14 February 2007 (UTC) I think that should do it![reply]

Twin towns

I have just noticed that the date of twinning with Waldshut-Tiengen is wrong. The twinning with Blois was certainly in 1963 - it was one of the earliest ever twinning arrangements. However, the three-way twinning between Lewes, Blois and Waldshut-Tiengen was accomplished some ten years later. Blois first twinned with Waldshut-Tiengen, and then Lewes completed the circle in 1974 (the 30th anniversary was celebrated in 2004). I don't know what the full date was, but the charter hangs on the wall of the Mayor's Parlour; trouble is, I don't know when I'll next be there to look at it!

I'll amend the year to 1974 (and also in the entry for Waldshut-Tiengen), but if anyone can supply the day and month this would be useful.

The entry for Blois and Waldshut-Tiengen will also need to be amended with the correct date on which their twinning agreement was signed.

Molly Mockford 11:03, 5 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pope Paul V

I have asked for a citation regarding the Papal effigy. I suspect that the effigy is a general pope rather than a specific historical figure. Without a citation, I am going to edit the reference to Paul V and replace it with "a Pope". Glow worm64 08:24, 6 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Don't because it isn't "a Pope" - citation will come in time (in fact 10 seconds research 0it is in now). Jooler 11:24, 6 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Curious. I had always been under the impression that it was Pope Paul IV who was pope at the time of the burning of the Lewes Martyrs QuestingVole 12:41, 6 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, we in the Cliffe Bonfire Society are firmly under the impression that it is an effigy of Pope Paul V that we carry in procession, and explode at the firesite (contrary to popular belief, the effigy is not burned on the bonfire). This is based on his being Pope at the time of the Gunpowder Plot of 1605 - not at the time of the burning of the Martyrs, which took place half a century earlier in 1555-1557. Molly Mockford 22:19, 6 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A citation is a citation (and good enough under Wiki rules even if I am not convinced) so Pope V stays! (You didn't need to be that quick - I was planning to wait a couple of months before doing anything.) Glow worm64 13:55, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you're not convinced, then come and visit us one November, and see for yourself! :-) You will then be able to buy the programmes of the individual Bonfire Societies; not all the Lewes societies burn a pope, but those who do, make it clear in their programme which pope it is, and why. It may not have occurred to you that it would be extraordinarily offensive to our Roman Catholic community if we were to burn a generic pope, or a random one! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Molly Mockford (talk • contribs) 16:50, 7 April 2007 (UTC).Oops, done it again :-( Molly Mockford 16:51, 7 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think I'll give it a miss. The people of Lewes are entitled to celebrate bonfire night in any way they wish. If local Catholics can stomach the burning of a Pope and a "No Popery" banner, good for them. Personally I am offended, but don't worry - I live more than 300 miles away. Glow worm64 06:39, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

External Links

I would recommend that the current external link list be pruned as follows:

(a) Retain:

   Lewes Town Council
   Lewes District Council
   Lewes Bonfire Council *
   Lewes Football Club
   Friends of Lewes *
   Lewes Flood Action *
   Lewes Chamber of Commerce *
   Sussex Express
   What's On guide (NB - should be re-titled "Viva Lewes: what's on guide"

(b) Remove:

   Lewes at the Open Directory Project
   John Harvey Tavern
   Priory School
   Lewes Footpaths Group *
   Lewes Sixth Form College
   Lewes bonfire photos & info
   Lewes Forum
   Lewes Information Website
   Harveys Brewery
   Friends of the Lewes Arms
   Phoenix Action
   Lewes Matters
   Lewes Bed and Breakfast Accommodation Group
   Lewes Bonfire Night Video

I must declare an interest here, in that that I am a professional web site designer in Lewes and have had (and in most cases continue to have) a professional connection (whether paid or pro bono) with the web sites which I have marked with an asterisk. I am happy to provide my reasons for placing any given site in the Retain or Remove categories, if anybody wishes me to do so.

22:29, 21 May 2007 (UTC) Bugger, why do I always forget how many tildes it should be? Molly Mockford 22:32, 21 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, go for it. External links sections just seem to grow and need constant pruning, often radically. If you look at the external links in featured articles, you'll see that there are often very few. For example, Sheffield (perhaps the only UK place that has a featured article) only has two. In the case of Lewes, I would go so far as to keep only the following:

   Lewes Town Council
   Lewes District Council
   Friends of Lewes *
   Lewes Flood Action *
   Lewes Chamber of Commerce *
   Sussex Express

Hope this helps.--A bit iffy 07:55, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

OK, done. I've retained Lewes Bonfire Council as well as the half-dozen you recommend, since it isn't included in the Bonfire section, and I suspect that many visitors to the Lewes entry want that information. But I'm open to be convinced!

--Molly Mockford 22:07, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds OK actually. Not sure why I missed Lewes Bonfire Council - on looking at it, it's got useful background info.--A bit iffy 22:16, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Rewrite

Whatever you have, it seems a lot of them! I have just completed a rewrite of the Newhaven article, and this one suffers from much the same problems. One of those problems here is the overwehelming (almost 25% of the article) section on the Bonfire - interesting but not what happens on the other 364 days of the year! The main problem is that it is not laid out as recommended in The how to write about settlements] paper. If it had been, then there would have much more of what the reader of the article would have looked for: including the economy of the town, its governance; education, churches, culture, landmarks, sports et al. I shall be looking at this shortly, and hope that once I have the outline in place others more nowleable about the place itself can add their local knowledge. There is, I know, so much more to be said about the Bonfire Society (I know of a man who has written a thesis on it) that it almost seems a case for an entirely separate article, only referred to in this one. Peter Shearan (talk) 12:00, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Historical significance

I don't know Lewes terribly well but surely Ann of Cleaves' house (or whichever of the 6 wives it was) deserves a mention, as does the incident when the prince rode down the hill on a wagon for a wager (or sosmething like that). I'm sure there's lots more historical stuff that could go in the article than there is a present

3tmx 17:12, 1 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Anne of Cleves House is mentioned in the History section although the article it points to is only a stub.--QuestingVole 15:53, 2 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Plus didn't they burn George bush a subsequent year- an interesting counterpart to the Bin Laden annecdote 3tmx 17:14, 1 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Lewes Bonfire Societies have, over the years, burned tableaux featuring just about every public figure you can think of - I see no need to list them all. The tableau featuring George Bush had no connection with that of Bin Laden, and I think we should not attempt to draw a spurious connection where none actually existed at the time. (Why do I always forget to sign the thing??) Molly Mockford 19:00, 2 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Court

Lewes is also important because of its assizes. It was also the place of the committal hearing for John Bodkin Adams, Britain's second worse serial killer (possibly 163+), and where he was later fined for fraud and drug offences.Malick78 14:54, 10 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

John George Haigh was sentenced to death in Lewes. The article really should have a legal/court section. Anybody got any other views on this?Malick78 09:31, 24 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 16:27, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Automated peer review

The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.

Please expand the lead to conform with guidelines at Wikipedia:Lead. The article should have an appropriate number of paragraphs as is shown on WP:LEAD, and should adequately summarize the article.^[?]
Per Wikipedia:Context and Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates), months and days of the week generally should not be linked. Years, decades, and centuries can be linked if they provide context for the article.^[?]
If there is not a free use image in the top right corner of the article, please try to find and include one.^[?]
As per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates), dates shouldn't use ^th; for example, instead of (if such appeared in the article) using January 30^th was a great day, use January 30 was a great day.^[?]
Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (headings), headings generally should not repeat the title of the article. For example, if the article was Ferdinand Magellan, instead of using the heading ==Magellan's journey==, use ==Journey==.^[?]
Watch for redundancies that make the article too wordy instead of being crisp and concise. (You may wish to try Tony1's redundancy exercises.)
- Vague terms of size often are unnecessary and redundant - “some”, “a variety/number/majority of”, “several”, “a few”, “many”, “any”, and “all”. For example, “~~All~~ pigs are pink, so we thought of ~~a number of~~ ways to turn them green.”
Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a.^[?]

You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, MortimerCat (talk) 10:40, 20 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

see my comments above re rewrite - and particularly the use of this Wiki recommendation on how to write about settlements Peter Shearan (talk) 15:23, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rewrite

See above. I have already begun this by putting in the section on Notable People ... and by having a separate article for it. That is precisely what should now happen with the Bonfire Societies, again with a reference, although a great deal is already also in the Sussex Bonfire Societies article. Is there not a case for including the paragraph here within that article? It gives a pretty fair picture of the other societies and the way they operate. Peter Shearan (talk) 18:39, 18 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is this really Lewes 2008?

The more I work on this article the less I am convinced that it has precious little to do with the day-to-day life of the town itself in 2008! Readers will get a very limited idea of it. My comments are:

As I said above, 25% of the article is concerned with the Bonfire: far too much for a one-day-a-year event, which in any case involves societies from all over Sussex, and could be better covered in the Sussex Bonfire Societies article as a section there, with a quick reference in the Lewes article. The other articlesays quite clearly that Lewes is the focal point of the activities. It would also save having to change it here when a new year brings new effigies!
OK so there was an avalanche, but it was a long time ago. There is nothing whatsoever about today - nothing about the economy (I have just found an AA guide which says the the Upper High Street is full of arty shops/boutiques, and has many historic buildings - we have the statement in the Talk page that the "commercial centre" (?) is actually at Cliffe: is that the bit where it looks like any other town? commerce is a lot more than that; nothing about the styles of building. AA guide has much to say, including the lanes which it says are called "twittens" and were laid out in Saxon times
Transport is dismissed with a 13-word sentence: there are the roads making Lewes a hub; and the Greensand Way
Too much about the MPs - surely better on the constituency article? Nothing about the town council itself (who is mayor this year?)
Geography: the South Downs are on both sides, not just "to the east of the town": Lewes is built on the western part; map says 7 miles from Brighton, but what about Newhaven (always more closely connected because of the river); nothing about the bits of the town not in the centre.

I could go on, but I will return to my rewriting. When I complete that, I shall be happy to let others who know the town better than I, fill in the gaps ... Peter Shearan (talk) 16:07, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The avalanche is unique.

of course it is, but I only mentioned it in going on to reinforce the point about the article having little to do with today's Lewes. I had no intention of cutting it out - just making it slightly less important! It neatly fits with the more recent natural disaster of the floods

Bonfire is part of the heart and soul of Lewes. It is not just one day in the year (In fact the Nevill Juniors' bonfire is held a couple of weeks earlier) the societies spend all year preparing for it, and fund-raising events are held throughout the year. I would guess that about 20% of the population of Lewes belong to, or have previously belonged to a Lewes Bonfire Society and certainly there is probably not a single person who does not know someone who is a member of a society. It absolutely belongs in this article in full and not in the Sussex Bonfire Societies article.

again, I had no intention of cutting it out altogether. Whilst I fully appreciate the import of Bonfire to Lewes, as it stands now it overwhelms the whole tenor of the article. The SBS article actually quotes all the references to the societies in the town, which this one does not; so IMO the two articles are unbalanced. As a non-Lewesian I have a slight feeling that the tenor of the paragraph is that of making Bonfire into a spectacle for the tourist, whereas the Bonfire Societies website warns off tourists (no car parking for example); nothing here about the downside ("fireworks are dangerous"). I am sure that, like any other "hobby" it has a strong (20%?) following, but I am equally sure that many (80%?) dread the occasion!

I'm not sure what you mean by "the bit where it looks like any other town"

I was commenting on part of the talk page which seemed to suggest that no "commercial" activities took place other than at Cliffe

- Nowhere in Lewes looks like any other town, but if you have been to Lewes, perhaps you are thinking of the pedestrian precinct, but that area is very small. Cliffe is to the east of the Cliffe Bridge and the small pedestrianised area is just to the west.

and that is not mentioned anywhere - it will be in Geography section describing the layout of the town - which should include Southover as well as the other newer parts of the town (no mention whatsoever)

Being at river level it was this area either side of the bridge that was worst hit by flooding. The Upper High St and School Hill have shops yes but they are interspersed much more with residential and public buildings.

which again can be included. Incidentally the "public buildings" that you mention include many offices (including Lewes District HQ, with East Sussex HQ being nearby) - and according to the latest statistics, 60% of the town's population is employed in the service industries, it being a triple local government town as a starter. And that is part of the commecial life too!

More to say later. Dinner's on the table. Jooler (talk) 19:06, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure what you mean by "It would also save having to change it here when a new year brings new effigies!".

not well said on my part - if we retain the article here, then the bit talking about what is the latest effigy might not be essential?

The downs are to the east and west of the town, but the most significant feature of the landscape of Lewes is the enormous white Cliff to the east of the town.

Geography again: but in that case the greatest significance from a geographer's point of view is the site of the town - in the gap of the Downs caused by the river. The cliff is a result of that.

Don't understand what you mean about Newhaven.

historically Newhaven is of far more importance to Lewes than Brighton. The river is tidal, and the outport for the one-time river trade was Newhaven, which is equidistant from the much more recent Brighton. Today the very busy A26 road still connects the port through the town area

Jooler (talk) 20:08, 19 May 2008 (UTC) Yes the article needs a lot of work, and has done for ages. Jooler (talk) 20:08, 19 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

historically Newhaven is of far more importance to Lewes than Brighton. The river is tidal, and the outport for the one-time river trade was Newhaven, which is equidistant from the much more recent Brighton. Today the very busy A26 road still connects the port through the town area Peter Shearan (talk)

Your analysis is incorrect. Newhaven is a backwater. Newhaven is not a container port and was never of any significant value as a trade port. It is primarily a ferry port. Ships used to navigate all the way up the Ouse to Lewes itself completely bypassing Newhaven. Of much more importance was the development of Brighton in Regency times and the building of the Lewes-Brighton turnpike (now A27 road) and later of course with the coming of the railway. Jooler (talk) 20:18, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you...

Jooler for your comments. I have interspersed my own replies. I am so glad that you have taken time to put in your ideas! Once I have the rewrite in the open, as it were, I shall be so grateful for your own input. Peter Shearan (talk) 05:50, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]