Talk:Dalida

April 3 rollback

DalidaEditor, I concur with your rollback, but when it involves reverting the work of several editors, as was the case here, it's customary, or at least, advisable, to add a section here on the Talk page to explain your reasoning. Otherwise, it can look a bit too much like ownership. In one case, you removed a reference added by KawatharUAE, but this is defensible, since it was added to the lead summarizing article content that was already sourced in the body. Going forward, if you roll back again, please raise a section here, and explain your action. If there are any objections, you'll need to respond and find consensus to determine how to proceed. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 01:13, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

@Mathglot: Hi, I understand and agree but I think this is a completely different case. If you look at past two months of Dalida page edits you would notice how most edits were whether she is Egyptian, French or Italian; so just spinning around because of random users, some even unregistered, are again trying to inflict personal opinions. The topic was disscussed and solved, the most basic fact about Dalida that was never doubtful. And some other edits were; transfer of American style words to British which was done partially by user leaving the article in complete mess, and capitalizing some words from no reason... That is why I didn't add any section because I tought those edits weren't much of important nature, thus completely unnecessary. Dalida Editor _{please ping or message me} 02:08, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

@DalidaEditor:, okay, well, it might be less obvious to someone just looking at the rev history and wondering what's going on, who isn't as familiar with the article, and its history, as you are. The safe thing, and the user-friendly thing to do, is to add some comments here. Now that's done, so if you don't get any pushback here, then it's fine. Happy editing! Mathglot (talk) 02:12, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

@Mathglot: Yes you are right, thanks for nice approach. Keep safe. Dalida Editor _{please ping or message me} 00:16, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

Blind revert and edit war done by cheep.

Hello,

User:cheep keeps reverting my edits without discussing them and removing reliable sources. Dalida was an Egyptian-born.

What's the point of removing such information? What could be his problem with her being Egyptian-born? --KawatharUAE (talk) 14:46, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

His problem is the same as mine. You are stating the same thing twice. The wording which was there before your edit was agreed some time ago. Please read the text very carefully and do not change it again. LynwoodF (talk) 15:15, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

I am not stating the same thing twice. Stating that she was an Egyptian-born French is totally different from stating that she was just a french citizen; as the former implies she was neutralized, while the latter implies she was French by birth and upbringing. That piece of information should be made clear at the introduction of the article.

--KawatharUAE (talk) 15:57, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

She was not actually Egyptian-born (see this article); she was Italian-born in Egypt and this is clearly stated. Please read what it says in the sentence. There is a parallel with Audrey Hepburn, who was British-born in Belgium to a Dutch mother, but was not entitled by virtue of her place of birth to Belgian nationality, nor by virtue of her mother's origins to Dutch nationality. LynwoodF (talk) 18:46, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

I doubt that you know the proper definition of Egyptian-born! An Egyptian-born is simply someone who was born in Egypt. Dalida was born in Egypt to Italian immigrants who settled in Cairo, Egypt prior to 1912, which automatically makes them Egyptian citizens as well. Dalida was a neutralized french, not just "French"; there is a difference. --Tania.raef (talk) 06:41, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Your point is probably valid, KawatharUAE.

Reading the article on Egyptian nationality, I cannot see that her parents would automatically have been entitled to Egyptian nationality, even if they settled in Egypt at the time you mention. They already had Italian nationality. The wording which appeared in this article before the recent changes was agreed a few years ago, after a discussion on the talk page, and it was felt to be the simplest way to summarize the complex situation in the lede. More detail is given in the main body of the article. It was decided to describe her as a French singer because her singing career began after she moved to France and she was naturalized French by marrying a French citizen. If you have better information than is available to the rest of us, please give us references. LynwoodF (talk) 08:37, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

First of all, she was definitely an Egyptian citizen, or else she would not have been able to join the national beauty contest of Miss Egypt in the first place, a contest which has always been exclusive to Egyptian nationals. Secondly, I don't really care whether she had the Egyptian nationality or not. She was an Egyptian-born and raised in Egypt. Last but not least, are you serious?! Just because someone became famous in a country which they happen to hold its citizenship later in life, would it mean we can ignore stating their true, original nationality--the nationality of their entire family--which they inherited by Jus sanguinis. If you can't see the fallacy in your argument, then please leave the matter to another admin to take care of. Wikipedia should not be the right place in which you can be racist and get away with it. --Tania.raef (talk) 17:02, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

I object to being described as a racist. Please withdraw the accusation. If you wish to change the text of the article, please find credible references to support the statements you make. LynwoodF (talk) 18:05, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

The source the I have provided along with thousands of other sources available online do support she was Egyptian-born of Italian descent, don't they? I believe explicitly stating that wouldn't take away any of your "French pride". --Tania.raef (talk) 19:51, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

I do not agree that the sources you give bear out your contention and I have not seen any other source which does. It is not clear to me whether you understand that being born in Egypt is not the same thing as being born Egyptian. My understanding of Egyptian nationality law suggests that she would not automatically have acquired the right to Egyptian nationality, but would have been deemed to be Italian at birth. Moreover, I have never seen any source which states unequivocally that she ever acquired Egyptian nationality. This could well be because there are none.

I am not French; I am a neutral observer attempting to record verifiable facts. LynwoodF (talk) 21:02, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Argh! For the millionth time, an Egyptian-born is someone who was born in Egypt regardless of their nationality. Is it so hard to understand? In other words, you do not have to be an Egyptian citizen to be an Egyptian-born. Speaking of whether she had the Egyptian nationality or not, I couldn't care less. However, I personally believe she had the Egyptian citizenship, or she wouldn't have been able to compete in Miss Egypt, a competition whose primary condition is to be Egyptian! Having said that, I'm not here to prove she was an Egyptian citizen. I'm here to state a well-known fact, which is she was an Egyptian-born italian...that can be proved with tens of thousands of sources. --Tania.raef (talk) 01:14, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

All we know with any degree of certainty is that she was born in Egypt to Italian parents and that is clearly stated in the lede. LynwoodF (talk) 07:41, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

User:Tania.raef, I believe you are confusing “Egypt-born”, which is about geography, with “Egyptian-born” which is about citizenship. But since “Egyptian-born” is rare enough that it might cause confusion with its cousin “Egypt-born”, it’s better to say “born an Egyptian citizen” if that’s what you mean, or “born in Egypt” if that’s what you mean. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 10:20, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Showing the confusion: this book uses the expression one way; while this one uses the other expression that way, so it's confusing. All the more reason to avoid the hyphenated expressions, and just spell out what is meant. Mathglot (talk) 18:54, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Sales

• "In a career spanning more than 30 years, Dalida sold 85 million records" — Suicide in the Entertainment Industry by David K. Frasier (2015); pag. 74
• "She sold over 85 million records world-wide over the years" — Macmillan Dictionary of Women's Biography by Jennifer Uglow (1993); pag. 145
• "she sang primarily in French or Italian, selling in excess of 85 million records worldwide" — Rock Obituaries: Knocking On Heaven's Door by Nick Talevski (2010); pag 114
• "she recorded more than 500 songs in eight languages and sold more than 100 million records" — Frommer's Memorable Walks in Paris by Jeanne Oliver (1998); pag. 121
• "Dalida became a major star in France, selling 120 million records during a thirty-year career that began in 1956" — HA!: A Self-Murder Mystery by Gordon Sheppard (2003)
• "Dalida , qui avait vendu 120 millions de disques de son vivant" — by Capital (FR); pag. 118, issues: 154-159
• 140 million albums by BroadwayWorld (2019)

--Apoxyomenus (talk) 19:07, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Dalida 1984.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:38, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

She’s Egyptian by birth and heritage, Italian by blood,

Not “French”! This is the funniest thing I’ve read. —MatthewS. (talk) 09:27, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Asking for admin involvement

First of all, I want to point out that this page looks like a fanzine page and it is not very balanced. I edited the nationality of Dalida, using the terms written in the Wikipedia French and Italian pages, The Spanish version uses the term 'Italian-French' citizenship. The user Cheep has reverted my edit. On the Wikipedia pages in French and Italian, Dalida is described as Italian, naturalised French. Dalida's first nationality was Italian. She was born in Egypt by Italian parents and she acquired Italian nationality at birth (jus sanguinis citizenship). Her mother tongue was Italian, she attended Italian school in Egypt and grew up in an Italian environment. She moved to France and acquired her French citizenship in 1961 after marrying Lucien Morisse, at age 28. Her first nationality was Italian and she became also French citizen. Deleting the fact she was first an Italian citizen, it is a disrespect to facts. She was Italian too, not just her parents. Now, the user LynwoodF was worried just to revert the correct information, stating that "This matter has been discussed at length before". I checked the previous discussion on this talk page and I don't see any balanced discussion at length, about this topic, but just a heavy involvement of a Dalida fan. Why is this behaviour allowed on the wikipedia English page of Dalida, when the other languages had dealt with the topic in a better and balanced way? Why does this page look like a fanzine? I am asking for the involvement of administrators. Thank you.--Cutio.mer (talk) 10:21, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

@Cutio.mer: Hi, other wikipedias are irrelevant in this case. Dalida is a French singer. There was a lot of talk about this topic even though there was no basis for it, but that discussion at least yielded a very concise and accurate introduction to article: “French singer, born in Egypt to Italian parents”. Cordially Dalida Editor _{please ping or message me} 09:48, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

@DalidaEditor:I asked for a feedback from an admin, not a Dalida's fan, tbh. Other wikipedia pages are not irrelevant, moreover Dalida was more known among French and Italian audience than English one. Dalida wasn't just born to Italian parents, but she was Italian herself, mother tongue Italian, and acquired later French citizenship at 28. Yes, she was singing mainly French, but she was singing also in other languages. Also you are really making a disservice to historical facts. Anyway, Dalida already explained clearly that in a song: ″C'est vrai, c'est vrai. C'est vrai que, je suis italienne. De naissance égyptienne″. Like it or not. Cutio.mer (talk) 11:30, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

A non-neutral article containing false information

I bring my support to make this article encyclopedic and respectful of the principles of Wikipedia. I propose to start updating the introduction of the article.

I rely only on factual evidence, and support my argument on a set of sources which, in any case, are irrefutable, at least can hardly be so. All this having only one goal, to manage to reform the article.

For starters, here is the false information in the introduction:

• Dalida, egyptian? At birth, she had Italian nationality because of her parents who were Italian. Being established in Egypt does not induce Egyptian nationality, Dalida has never had this nationality, nor Egyptian origins. On the other hand, she was naturalized French in April 1961. She is therefore in fact and from the legal point of view an Italian-French or, in other words, an Italian naturalized French. She explains it herself in this broadcast dated November 16, 1986. The French and Italian Wikipedia page of Dalida advances this too.
• Dalida, leading singer in Europe in the 60s? In reality, an artist among others. Lolita, a German artist, had sold a million records in Germany alone in 1960, the same for Rocco Granata with his song Marina. The same year, a success by Dalida sold more than 500,000 copies internationally. This can be repeated throughout the 1960s. Although Dalida sold several million records during those years, she was not "the leader" of the record market in Europe.
• Dalida, first platinum record? No. For example, the Philips record company had already awarded one to its artists in August 1963. That is more than a year before Dalida received it; having obtained it on September 17, 1964.
• Dalida, first diamond disc? No. It's the same story and there are many counterexamples. To name just one, Anna Lena Lofgren received one in March 1968. In addition, the one received by Dalida is not a record as such but an Oscar (as written on the award).

Apart from that, we must also opt for a broader formulation concerning sales and less precise. Dalida's sales figures are a roller coaster from one year to the next. For example, in 1981 we were talking about 65 million or even 67 million records sold. In 1987, 85 million or even 185 million as in Turkey. In the 90s, more than 100 million. In 2007, 170 million. In 2016, 140 million (120 million sold during his lifetime, 20 million since his death). In 2020, 125 million on the official website. A formula like "With several million records sold..." is in fact more generic and above all more neutral. And if necessary, it will be necessary to support this in the Discography section by indicating a sales range, with supporting sources.

I will not go back to the non-neutral chosen vocabulary which is already the subject of a banner on the article.

It is urgent to clarify Dalida's article which very closely resembles a blog article dedicated to the artist and not an encyclopedic article. I take the first step. --Elenora.C (talk) 01:28, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

Hi, I haven't been as active on wikipedia in months as I used to be. I’m very busy so I don’t even get to be a part of this new discussion you’ve started, which I’d love to. So I can only answer two things that caught my eye out of a few of which you have listed.

You write "for starters"? And here, you are a...? I recommend that you become a little more familiar with this article, and not just attack it because of the state it was in on the day you read it. For cca 2 years, several editors are making efforts to keep this article as much as normal it can be, constantly fighting article vandalism on nationality, although agreed: French singer.

Second, are you trying to compare the success of Dalida in the 1960s and relativize it with one hit wonders? Popularity and success are not measured solely in sales, what are we talking about...

On French wikipedia, articles for musicians' discographies are flooded with sources that are nothing more than blogs, and the editors of those wiki articles are either these bloggers or are closely related to them. To me it seems that those like-minded people would like to spread their "facts" (their own calculations and quasi homemade hit parades) to the English wikipedia. There is a quite interesting new page "chartsinfos . com" I just discovered, that you tried to implement on Memorias (Camilo Sesto album) article. That webpage seems to be very focused on Dalida, Mireille Mathieu and Charles Aznavour. Definetely an official source, hm. I wonder is this an offspring of already well branched "artisteschartsventes.blogspot. com" group... not sure, but definetely like-minded people's creation. The ".com" suffix in a place of ".blog" doesn't make it any more official.

Cordially Dalida Editor _{please ping or message me} 15:12, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

Dear @DalidaEditor:,

I'm glad you're taking part in the debate.

However, I would first like to settle a dispute with you even if this is not the place but it is necessary to lead a calm debate. Please stop hammering that I'm a French contributor when you proceed to completely arbitrary cancellations concerning my contributions. First, I’m Spanish. And even if I had been French, I don't see how this is an argument to highlight. Are the contributions of a Spanish or French user bad precisely because they come from these people? I am a full contributor. End of this aside.

I already brought many sources in my last intervention on this discussion page. And yes, I made changes dubbed by users who thanked me.

I don't know what blog you are talking about. Indeed, I use many sources as you can see on my Spanish wikipedia user page. Chartsinfos is one of them and it's not a blog. It's a database only. Take a closer look and you'll find the legal notices, not to mention the fact that they do have a domain name as well. So your assessment is completely unfounded. The sources for this site are actual sales and official rankings. Archives are available for consultation. The site has undergone a major update, other artists were there before. The proof is you mention Camilo Sesto. But they seem to be coming back gradually. It had been indicated. I also use the Billboard which was basically a magazine for professionals in the recording industry. In short, I will not cite all my sources.

Concerning the Camilo Sesto articles, the sources were well accepted, and my contributions earned me the "fregona coronada", precisely for having made the main article more neutral and sourced. But unfortunately, there are always vandals who are always very active and who themselves call you a vandal when you modify their contributions. A very classic conflict.

Dalida's nationality

Italy, like France, recognizes dual nationality. This does not depend on our goodwill, but falls under international law. I’m a jurist, and I can tell you that you are in a misunderstanding of international law, without taking offense. Dalida, being born of Italian parents and having obtained French nationality, is indeed an Italian-French. This is even said by her. I refer you to previous sources.

Here are other sources :

Concerning these alleged Egyptian origins : Book : DALIDA une vie…, page 6 (ISBN :978-2205-06107-9) : « For the Egyptian state, she is of Italian nationality and is named Iolanda-Cristina ». The official papers are published in the book. Anyway her Italian nationality is certain.

Dalida does indeed have two nationalities: Book : L’Argus Dalida, page 1 (ISBN : 9782953141153) : « French at heart, the Diva (as her admirers call her) was born in Egypt and kept her Italian nationality, inherited from her ancestors. » here is the link where you can precisely read an extract and where you will find the sentence.

Dalida's popularity in the 1960s in Europe

If we look at sales in the 1960s, Dalida is indeed not the leader in Europe. But if we look at the official rankings (especially in Italy, Germany, Spain etc... because yes they already existed) we can see that Dalida does not dominate the European market either. So if neither the sales nor the rankings justify the position you assigned to her, what are your references? your sources? For my part, I have already stated my sources previously, I refer you to them.

Take the time to consult the sources I have given. Do not take it badly, but you supported false things, an example: to say that Dalida had received the first platinum disc. I will not return to the subject of nationality.

I hope I have enlightened you. If you could give sources, please, to have a fair and solid debate.

While waiting for your reply,

friendly

p.s.: Your pseudonym suggests a lack of objectivity "DalidaEditor". Why this choice ? Elenora.C (talk) 20:15, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

Can we stop the personal attacks and focus on the best published sources? I agree with this reversion by Elenora which states that Dalida "is an Italian-French singer and actress born in Egypt." It's accurate and suitable.

The article has been tagged for its lack of neutrality since September 2021. It was also tagged for "too many sections", so Elenora bravely jumped in and reduced the problems, rewriting the lead section to make it more concise. Unfortunately, we still have the faux section headers remaining in place, and much of the non-neutrality is still there. As an example, one cited source says Dalida was accused in 1978 of lip-syncing a performance, but nothing about that accusation is in the article. Her production people admitted to using pre-recorded tracks for the disco numbers. The source is misrepresented because only half of it is summarized: the hammer attack part.

I think the article needs a strong rewrite, accepting the bad with the good. Binksternet (talk) 21:13, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for intervening and refocusing the debate. I try somehow to bring only solid sources, facts and to remain objective in my writings. The facts, their validations, sources and more sources. I would like to intervene already on the part concerning her career. Even if users intervene after the fact to complete. Starting from scratch is necessary. Remove all its false assertions, like the introduction which had been overwhelmed with them. Elenora.C (talk) 21:25, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

I've removed the faux headings, which i really dislike, but i agree with Binksternet that a bit of a rewrite is needed ~ perhaps too much detail is there, or perhaps it just needs condensing a bit and made to read as a whole. Happy days ~ Lindsay^Hello 11:37, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Hello @LindsayH

That's why I provided some answers. Indeed, as Binksternet said, elements are put forward but the sources do not coincide. In reality, most of what is put forward is false information that comes from Barclay's merchandising and marketing techniques, then from other productions (eg Dalida leader in Europe, Dalida n°1 here is there, Dalida seduces intellectuals , Dalida disco queen), add to that sales that do not exist (no sources) and a non-neutral vocabulary. Without counting the contribution of fanatics not-objectives.

Example: The record company claimed that the title had been number 1 in 9 countries. In fact, only in 2 countries around the world.

The article as it stands discredits Dalida's career, it's all about one-upmanship. While she already enjoys an international career with many successes. While thanking you Elenora.C (talk) 12:10, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Dalida was never Miss Egypt in 1954

Another misinformation reported. Here is the evidence after some research. Antigone Costanda was Miss Egypt in 1954 (elected necessarily in 53 for the year 1954) and incidentally Miss World, ahead of Karin Hultman Miss USA. (Source 1 & 2)

Dalida competed in Miss Ondine of Cairo, a variant of Miss Egypt. What is more, she did not win the contest and finished second runner-up. As confirmed by Le journal d'Egypte on June 9, 1954: "Paula Williams was elected Bathing Beauty 1954. Her runners-up are Yolande Gigliotti and Catherine Kindilidis". Paula Williams was indeed Miss Ondine of Cairo. Another source, the book Dalida: Mythe et mémoire (ISBN : 978-2361393977): "[...] it is in this context that the name of a certain Yolande Giglioti appears in the press, but not as a winner but second prize ex eaquo: Mrs Paula Williams has was voted Bathing Beauty 1954". For reasons of fame, reality has been distorted regarding Dalida.

In fact...

Miss Egypt 1953: Marina Papaelia (reference)

Miss Egypt 1954: Antigone Costanda

Miss Egypt 1955: Gladys Hoene

In light Dalida was second runner-up in the 1954 Miss Ondine Cairo contest (Bathing Beauty) and has never been Miss Egypt. --Elenora.C (talk) 11:31, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Okay, I have responded to your information by removing the less important beauty contest text. If she was only second runner up, it's not enough to mention in the first paragraph. Binksternet (talk) 14:30, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

@Binksternet I was also thinking about deleting the info. But I'm not the only one to decide... in any case, thank you for once again intervening. The term "miss egypt" in one of the titles should also be deleted. I'm going to do it. Elenora.C (talk) 17:01, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Dalida's nationality

In consideration of her official documents and of French and Italian law that Dalida's dual nationality is well and truly established. Italian law provides that "women who after January 1, 1948 have automatically acquired a foreign nationality by effect of marriage with foreign citizens or by foreign naturalization of the Italian-born husband, have not lost Italian nationality". According to the Consulate General of Italy, taking up the notion of "uninterrupted possession", a principle of Italian law. In fact, dual nationality is specific to France. French nationality law, codified after the Revolution, already does not necessarily require a naturalized person to break with his or her original nationality. Consequently, being able to certify her Italian nationality through her birth certificate and her French nationality through her identity documents (implying a certificate of nationality issued after 1948, having married in 1961), Dalida is indeed an Italian-French woman from a legal and therefore factual point of view. With regard to the administrative part, to have the necessary annotations on the act of civil status, one must make a request. But this does not constitute a process of re-acquisition of Italian nationality unlike women married before January 1, 1948; but an administrative formality; never having lost it. In addition, the nationality that one has of another country does not appear on the identity documents. The identity document of a country is an attestation of the nationality of the latter and not of the others. One can thus have several identity papers. Dalida has an Italian ID as well.--Elenora.C (talk) 03:50, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

@Elenora.C Ethnicity is not same as nationality! Dalida dropped her Italian nationality upon marriage in 1961 and took the French. [1] Stop reverting please. Dalida Editor _{please ping or message me} 12:19, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

It is indeed about nationality and not about ethnicity. Uninterrupted possession, a principle of Italian law, clearly demonstrates this. I will not repeat myself. Italian law refers to nationality, only nationality. Coming within the framework of Italian law, having married in April 1961, Dalida in no way lost her Italian nationality. She has therefore always possessed it, and could have claimed the latter at any time. Elenora.C (talk) 13:05, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

It is time all this nonsense stopped. We agreed a long time ago to the wording "... was a French singer and actress, born in Egypt to Italian parents", which deals succinctly with the complications of her origins. The sequence of events is dealt with in more detail in the main body of the article. LynwoodF (talk) 14:15, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

@LynwoodF. A false thing validated before must remain as it if I understand correctly. A user has already endorsed Dalida's Italo-French status following my contributions. I have already provided the sources showing that Dalida never had Egyptian nationality. In which case, we should have written italo-egypto-french. On the other hand, she has a birth certificate which attests to her Italian nationality. But also identity papers. Both countries recognize dual nationality. This is a fact. No tacit loss of Italian nationality; Italy preserving it for its nationals despite marriage to foreigner after the date of January 1, 1948. From the moment when the law grants to preserve Italian nationality, it is necessary for this to already possess it. Also no decree of naturalization of Dalida found in the OJ in France stipulating a formal renunciation of her Italian nationality. QED. Clearly, what can you say about Italian law and uninterrupted possession and French law (dual citizenship)? Aren't they real sources? Did I invent them? Am I responsible for this? I did not participate in any way in the debate on the French, Italian and Spanish Wikipedia pages. Sometimes there were debates. However, it is clearly indicated that she is Italian-French. I worry about how formal and sourced information (required by wikipedia) is brushed aside in favor of a scrap of debate that was overly about a theoretical formulation devoid of any reference; during which incidentally other users who disagreed were not prompted even by a ping. Elenora.C (talk) 15:03, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for saying that my contributions are nonsense. This is very appreciable. --Elenora.C (talk) 15:13, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

What do sources say?

Here are some sources that describe Dalida in terms of nationality. To me, it looks like we can add "Italian" to the first description of her nationality. Dalida was not born into Egyptian nationality, as neither of her parents were Egyptian-born. When she was born she was Italian nationality. Binksternet (talk) 23:34, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

• "She was Franco-Italian, born and raised in Egypt." Georges-Claude Guilbert (2018). Gay Icons: The (Mostly) Female Entertainers Gay Men Love, page 52.
• "Egypt-born Italian singer and actress who acquired French citizenship upon marriage in 1961." Juliana Tzvetkova (2017). Pop Culture in Europe, page 26.
• "Dalida, Italian singer". Jesse Shiers (2008). The Quotable Bitch: Women Who Tell It Like It Really Is, page 62.
• "A cosmopolitan artist, born in Egypt into an Italian family, Dalida built a career in France and internationally." Evelin Lindner (2010). Gender, Humiliation, and Global Security, page 161.
• "Egypto-Italian pop icon Dalida". Sofian Merabet (2014). Queer Beirut, page 13.
• "Egyptian/French popular singer. Dalida was born in Cairo of Italian parents..." Jennifer Uglow (1991). Macmillan Dictionary of Women's Biography, page 145.
• "Egyptian-born French-Italian singer Dalida..." Andrew Hammond (2005). Pop Culture Arab World!, page 130.
• "Dalida was an Egyptian/Italian/French singer and actress..." Ruby Boukabou (2019). Art Lover's Guide to Paris, page 215.
• "French-Italian star". Egypt Today, 17 January 2021.[2]

Others sources

I also allow myself to add its sources that I had given previously in another section.

• Concerning these alleged Egyptian origins : Book : DALIDA une vie…, page 6 (ISBN :978-2205-06107-9) : « For the Egyptian state, she is of Italian nationality and is named Iolanda-Cristina ». The official papers are published in the book. Anyway her Italian nationality is certain.
• Dalida does indeed have two nationalities: Book : L’Argus Dalida, page 1 (ISBN : 9782953141153) : « French at heart, the Diva (as her admirers call her) was born in Egypt and kept her Italian nationality, inherited from her ancestors. » here is the link where you can precisely read an extract and where you will find the sentence.

@LynwoodF, @DalidaEditor Here is a set of elements brought by @Binksternet and me.

A few simple questions:

Won't you consider the above sources?

Are you going to go against the Italian law which Dalida is under aegis? (as demonstrated with supporting sources and documents)

As a reminder, I quote Wikipedia: "Encyclopedic content must be verifiable through citations to reliable sources". And also argues that: "Law sources that are written by authoritative experts in law, such as legal scholars, and published by respected independent publishing houses are normally reliable sources." here. Waiting for your answer, I allow myself to thank you in advance. Good day to all.--Elenora.C (talk) 10:30, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Dalida dropped her Italian nationality upon marriage in 1961 and took the French. Identity card: [3] Dalida Editor _{please ping or message me} 15:27, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

That image doesn't support your statement that Dalida "dropped her Italian nationality". It supports her French nationality, which nobody here is questioning, but doesn't say anything negative about Italian nationality. She was Italian nationality at birth. Binksternet (talk) 15:43, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

"Italian citizenship was exclusive until 15 August 1992; therefore, the voluntary acquisition of any non-Italian citizenship meant the automatic renunciation of one’s Italian citizenship for people who were born with Italian citizenship." Can it be more clear?Dalida Editor _{please ping or message me} 20:19, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

References

Changing to from one nationality to another does not erase a person's history. Binksternet (talk) 20:52, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Stop edit warring.

Truly, I don't care what nationality she was. I do care, however, that the edit warring going on here is poor behaviour, and i urge editors, in particular Elenora.C and DalidaEditor to stop, now, and discuss on this talk page, and not make another single edit to the article until some agreement is reached. If necessary, ask for a third opinion to help resolve the issue, but whatever you do, stop warring ~ it helps no one and puts you both in the wrong. Happy days ~ Lindsay^Hello 07:59, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

LindsayH Hello, believe it I don't want to get into an edit warring. A third party has already intervened. Indeed, @Binksternet agrees that asserting that Dalida is an Italian-French is accurate and suitable. The elements have been provided both in the section "Dalida's nationality" and in the section "A non-neutral article containing false information". It is also enough to look at the discussions of the users who intervened on this page about the nationality of Dalida. You are aware that a banner is currently affixed because this article is written in a non-neutral way and from a fan point of view. This results in the dissemination of a flow of distorted, invented or even sublimated information. DalidaEditor is a leader of a Dalida fan club and has contributed to this. I have been thanked by several users for my interventions. Binksternet is one of them. But can we continue to respond to this request for neutral and enlightened writing of the article if the people who have already placed the article in this situation prevent you from doing so ? I tried to establish the contact and asked him to be understanding and to see the interventions of the other users on the discussion page as well as the new sources in order to better improve the article. Nothing works. And he still doesn't bring sources although I asked him for them, to know where he got his information. I am not here to quarrel with and user or to impose a point of view on the contrary, I work hard and as efficiently as possible to meet this request for new writing. DalidaEditor supported many false information and there are still others to raise. Sources indicated did not refer to what was advanced for example. Or there, highlighting the problem with its non-neutral wording. He evoked a consensus of two years ago on the nationality of Dalida which actually never existed, etc... I believe that the problem goes far beyond an edit warring. Because he has already imposed not facts, sourced, irrefutable and verified but his point of view. By ignoring the interventions of all users. If we want to improve the article, people must be able to do so without suffering interference from people who have already put the article in this state. It is in no way a question of dismissing them but of soliciting them with a view to a constructive contribution and not the reverse. Just a little moderation. While waiting for your reply. Have a good day Elenora.C (talk) 09:39, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

LindsayH yes, the edit war is happening and I hate to be a part of it, but it is my response to what is happening recently. Elonora appeared and started editing everything, alot of thing that were bad in this article were finally getting fixed but some thing we're completely fine, and Elonora started imposing her opinion that is opposite to a consenzus 2 years old. And that is the nationality part. Don't you think how in that situation Elonora first had to do the voting on talk page and then start changing?

After all, you say you don't want any more edits untill this is resolved. But yet Elonora again reverted my change si ce yesterday and her opinion stays publicly. I think that the old version should stay until voting is done.

If there is gonna be any voting. Beause Dalida dropped her Italian nationality upon marriage in 1961 and took the French. [4] And the further discussion is useless. Dalida Editor _{please ping or message me} 12:25, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Elenora.C I am not leader of any fanclub, don't spread false info. Dalida Editor _{please ping or message me} 12:30, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Do you think continuing a discussion is really useless? You clearly demonstrate the way you work on Wikipedia. Elenora.C (talk) 12:58, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

As I have said elsewhere, we had a discussion about this some time ago and agreed on a wording. LynwoodF (talk) 14:32, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

I looked for such a discussion and found an inconclusive thread at Talk:Dalida/Archive_1#Dalida's_nationality. In that 2007 discussion, the problem being discussed was the listing of Egyptian nationality, and the consensus was to eliminate the false idea that Dalida ever held Egyptian nationality. But there was no consensus to ignore her Italian citizenship. Binksternet (talk) 20:55, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

This is what I have argued several times. There was no consensus, only formulations without any reference. However, they insist that a consensus has taken place. Elenora.C (talk) 21:26, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Request for comment: Dalida's nationality described in the first paragraph

Should Dalida's Italian birth nationality be listed in the first paragraph along with her acquired French nationality? Binksternet (talk) 21:05, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Poll

• Yes. At this article there has been a persistent effort to reduce Dalida's Italian heritage, which is a violation of WP:NPOV. Dalida was born into Italian citizenship in Egypt because of jus sanguinis laws active in Italy and Egypt. Her parents were both Italian citizens. She took French citizenship in 1961 upon her marriage to Frenchmen Lucien Morisse, at which time her Italian citizenship was automatically revoked—Italy did not allow dual citizenship for adults who voluntarily accepted another nationality. So she was Italian from birth in 1933 to 1961, then French from 1961 to her death in 1987. In terms of years, she was half Italian and half French. Her success was mainly in France, but she sold millions in Italy as well. The media frequently describe her as Franco-Italian or some variation on that theme, for instance Egypt Today which described her as a "French-Italian star" in January 2021,[5] and the 2004 book Pop Culture Arab World!: Media, Arts, and Lifestyle from ABC-CLIO which says "Egyptian-born French-Italian singer Dalida". Professor Georges-Claude Guilbert in France wrote in 2018 that Dalida "was Franco-Italian, born and raised in Egypt."[6] Wikipedia should follow the example of the meda. Binksternet (talk) 21:05, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

• Yes. According to the Consulate General of Italy, according to Italian law. You have to browse the site. Marriage between January 1, 1948 and January 8, 1973: "uninterrupted possession" of Italian Nationality :"We can say that these women had somehow been deceived: in fact they had been told that with the marriage they had lost their Italian nationality. The same was true in the case of the French nationalization of the husband. But in reality it was recognized that they had never lost it." / "The repeal of [the loss of Italian nationality of women married to French citizens and their ascendants] in 1975 and subsequent case law recognized women (married to a French citizen between 01.01.1948 and 08.01.1973) who had lost Italian nationality by marriage or by naturalization of their spouses the right to assert their Italian nationality.. [...] [A contrario]: Italian women who acquired French nationality by marriage on request in the period 09.01.1973 - 23.03.1995 lost Italian nationality." The law being retroactive (the old provisions having been repealed in 1975), it was recognized during Dalida's lifetime that she had not in fact lost Italian nationality, and benefited from the uninterrupted possession of Italian nationality. Therefore, as a consequence of this law, no loss of Italian nationality according to uninterrupted possession, but an administrative loss. That is to say on the civil status certificate, which we do not know if it has been modified or not. Moreover, one can read : « French at heart, the Diva (as her admirers call her) was born in Egypt and kept her Italian nationality, inherited from her ancestors. » Book : L’Argus Dalida, page 1 (ISBN : 9782953141153). here is the link where you can precisely read an extract and where you will find the sentence. --Elenora.C (talk) 21:14, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

• Hold on, what? This is a very funny way to confuse people who didn't track the situation on article page and talk page in past weeks. The wording of this question is hillarious! Because Dalida's Italian heritage was always part of first lines of article: "French singer born in Egypt to Italian parents". These cited words are a chunk of text that was agreed on talk page almost 3 years ago. By the words of @LynwoodF, this wording "deals succinctly with the complications of her origins. The sequence of events is dealt with in more detail in the main body of the article.". Recently @Elenora.C and @Binksternet started changing it to "French-Italian singer...", after wich a chaos happened and even Binksternet threatened me on my talk page with blocking, for being in edit war with him (biased, very).

To end the ballade I have to correct the blatant propagandish "this article there has been a persistent effort to reduce Dalida's Italian heritage". No, this article never did this neither did editors promote that. These 2 editors recently started pursuing their opinion how Dalida was Italian-French. Then I presented this [7] (NATIONALITE FRANCAISE). Then they changed their agenda and started pursuing how she had probaby dual nationality, and didn't renounce her Italian upon marrying a French citizen in 1961. Then I presented with this [8] (Law on automatic renouncing prior to 1992 - Dalida died in 1987). Then they again changed their agenda and posted this poll. What is this? Competition or wikipedia?

Avoid the online magazine and various mediocre books for source. They present opinions. Egyptians appropriate her also, tons of magazines call her Egyprian-French diva bla bla. The source is reality + documents. She was affliated solely to a France as a singer. We are not talking about ethnicity: it is completely normal and real that she was ethnic Italian. But she was the ambassador of France via her worldwide singing, that is why she recieved Arts-Lettres medal in 1968. Thus I am for the current wording: "French singer born in Egypt to Italian parents". Cordially Dalida Editor _{please ping or message me} 22:04, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

The choice of words—"Italian parents"—is not as clear as "Italian" in nationality. Not every reader will know that Italian parents in Egypt means Italian nationality. You refer to a discussion three years ago... can you supply a link to that? Because I see several unresolved discussions. Binksternet (talk) 22:19, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

@DalidaEditor Please enter this vote genuinely by presenting a clear answer and advancing your sources in order to avoid any off-topic. Elenora.C (talk) 22:24, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Please @Elenora.C, don't make a fool of me and don't interrupt my response just as I didn't yours. We had time and place to discuss, and we did it above. I was clear, my reponse is bolded in last line. @Binksternet it is the simplest intro..... just as LynwoodF said before, and just as I cited her above: this wording "deals succinctly with the complications of her origins. The sequence of events is dealt with in more detail in the main body of the article.". — Preceding unsigned comment added by DalidaEditor (talk • contribs) 22:32, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

@DalidaEditor you are outside the context of this section. And I assure you there is no slander, simply this section must be effective and relevant.--Elenora.C (talk) 22:36, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

• (edit conflict)Yes As Binksternet has shown above there are RSs using that information.

But far more important right now is that the two arguing here should stop edit warring immediately. I thought it was pretty clear in the section i started above, but both of you claimed you didn't want to but.... But nothing! I've been at work for some hours and there are fifteen changes to the article , back and forth, back and forth. If it continues i may request full protection then none of us can edit it.

Binksternet, thank you for starting this RfC; i hope it does some good, but at the moment some people seem very entrenched in their positions and unable to stop themselves. Happy days ~ Lindsay^Hello 22:49, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

I think you understand very well why back-and-forth is happening: namely Binksternet and Elonora started changing article without consenzus reached. Only after the agreement is reached, changes can be done. And now we will soon reach it. Dalida Editor _{please ping or message me} 23:02, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

• No. Isn't it pretty clear how she is French singer? She literally said that by herself https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKrDRF-jY3s here she also explains a little bit her complicated situation at 7:30-8:40. 213.202.72.146 (talk) 04:28, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
• Support as Italian-French or French-Italian. She had Italian parents and French citizenship. Don't have to say anything else. 106.214.120.46 (talk) 14:37, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
• Maintain Status Quo - I think the article does a pretty good job at presenting the information as it is. "French singer born in Egypt to Italian parents" is accurate and brief, and a more complex explanation of her situation is given further down in the article. PraiseVivec (talk) 10:51, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
• Maintain status quo - I don't understand French but, in the youtube video above, if she describes herself as a 1) French singer then 2) describes her complicated situation, then I am convinced that "French singer born in Egypt to Italian parents" is an accurate/ perfect description and it works.--The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 11:14, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
• Maintain status quo - Concur w/ The Eloquent Peasant and PraiseVivec. Current wording seems clear and accurate. NickCT (talk) 12:57, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
• Maintain status quo - I was involved in the choosing of this wording and a great deal of thought was put into it. I did not devise it myself, but I wholeheartedly approved of it. LynwoodF (talk) 13:37, 17 May 2022 (UTC)
• Maintain status quo The place for nuance and expansion of the basics is later than the lead - which is presently sufficiently clear to summarise a complex situation of birthplace/inheritance/acquired nationality. Pincrete (talk) 09:44, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
• Yes Dalida maintained her Italian citizenship also after marrying a French man. The major Italian news agency Ansa states she kept her Italian citizenship after gaining the French one. The mayor of Serrastretta, Dalida's parents hometown, has stated that despite living in Egypt "Dalida's family retained the citizenship and domicile of the entire family in the municipality of Serrastretta. The entire registry of her family is transcribed in the registers of this Municipality, in which there is also the transcription of Dalida's birth certificate, and it was precisely the Municipality of Serrastretta that made her the banns for her marriage in 1961". Also, you should stop using Dalida's French interviews in a partisan way. In many interviews she stated she was also Italian from Calabria like in the Italian RAI programme 'Johnny Sera' in 1961. She even stated it in a song where she said 'it is true. I am an Italian born in Egypt who sings in French'. The other wikipedia pages of Dalida (French, Italian, Spanish and so on) clearly say she was an Italian singer naturalised French'. So, you should stop twisting facts and saying that she was just born to Italian parents, with this disinformation campaign led by the so-called Dalida Editor, who wrongly writes that Dalida lost her Italian citizenship after gaining the French one.

https://www.adnkronos.com/dalida-mito-italiano-la-calabria-la-ricorda-nella-sua-serrastretta_7j8f7RKwOm3PnlWBwO3efG?refresh_ce https://www.ansa.it/canale_viaggiart/it/regione/calabria/2017/10/30/dalida-icona-musica-con-radici-calabresi_8ba1cb44-284e-4144-8516-801f69f42f05.html#:~:text=Dalida%2C%20infatti%2C%20anche%20dopo%20il,dunque%20resta%20sempre%20molto%20forte. 92.13.51.159 (talk) 20:12, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

• Yes per Elenora.C AnneDant87 (talk) 01:35, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
• Yes Mostly yes. Diverse media outlets have remarked it. --Apoxyomenus (talk) 04:04, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
• No. Dalida is French. She was Italian, it's true, but lost this nationality. At birth for Egyptian civil status, she was Italian. Dalida in an interview in 1982, she explains that for her marriage she was offered to keep Italian nationality or become French. Her response: “I of course chose France.” Namely, Dalida had never seen Italy before setting foot in France.--Talgor007 (talk) 19:13, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

To date, this vote shows that most people were for the old version (which was recently modified without taking into account what was happening here).--Talgor007 (talk) 11:39, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Misleading editing by user Fragrant Peony

On Wikipedia different pages in Arabic describe Dalida as Egyptian. Like here This false information has been spread all over the web on articles, blogs and even on major news outlets. The user Fragrant Peony is updating continuously the term "Italian-French singer and actress, born in Egypt" in the lead, writing the more ambiguous term "Egyptian-born Italian French singer and actress". The place of birth of Dalida is reported in different sections of the page! Why this obsession by the user? Dalida was never Egyptian, she spoke in a broken Arabic. In fact she grew up speaking Italian as a mother tongue, attending Italian schools and growing up in the Italian community in Egypt. At the time there was a large community of Italians of Egypt. There are different famous Italians born in Egypt, like writers Giuseppe Ungaretti or Filippo Tommaso Marinetti and I don't see "Egypt born" in the lead of their Wikipedia pages. Also I find not really truthful the fact that this page of Dalida has been marked of High-importance for the WikiProject of France and Egypt, but marked as Low-importance for the WikiProject of Italy.

Dalida recorded 5 (five) songs in Egyptian Arabic, but she recorded over 110 songs in Italian. In 1967, Dalida won Canzonissima, the most important Italian musical variety show in those years. And Dalida charted in the top ten in Italy 12 times. Also Italy was the first country to produce a fictional movie about Dalida's life. Can anyone explain to me why is this page marked as Low-importance for the WikiProject of Italy?79.66.203.92 (talk) 22:46, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Excellent points. The Egyptian origin is certainly being emphasized too much. She was never a citizen of Egypt because Egypt did not practice jus soli nationality. She was instead born an Italian citizen.

The problem I see is that Fragrant Peony is relying too much on one documentary film, titled Dalida l’Egyptienne : les premières années. The few sources saying she is Egyptian are massively outnumbered by those saying she is French, or Italian-French, or French-Italian. Fragrant Peony even cites one of these that says Dalida is French,[9] even in the context of Egyptian music.

Fragrant Peony is putting WP:UNDUE emphasis on Dalida's Egyptian birth. The great majority of sources do not agree with this viewpoint. We must represent the sources with proper weight; doing so will restore the article to saying she is Italian-French or French-Italian, with her birthplace mentioned second. Binksternet (talk) 01:03, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Not really, you are backing the fan-IP with a non-neutral POV unsupported by her own family, not to mention also stating a false statement regarding the poll.

The Wiki article of Dalida has a template stating: { This article may be written from a fan's point of view, rather than a neutral point of view. Please clean it up to conform to a higher standard of quality, and to make it neutral in tone. (September 2021) }

As a matter of fact; Dalida's official short film and documentary done by Paris Match and featuring her own brother is called: Dalida l’Egyptienne : les premières années.[10]

Many Western fans have been constantly and systematically deleting her Egyptian link, even though her own family members massively document it as a huge part of her identity, till the point that she made a song calling Egypt her homeland.

I tried to make the article as neutral as possible, and not so Western-biased, and is indeed supported by sources.

The Egyptian-born Franco-Italian singer Dalida is renowned worldwide for her top-selling musical records. But in Egypt, she was a national symbol. Before emerging on the French stage, Dalida made her debut in Egyptian cinema. In 1986, Dalida returned to her birthplace to reflect on her past and star in the film The Sixth Day by Youssef Chahine. In this talk, we will follow Dalida’s journey from Egypt to France and back again to make her last film. [11]

Egyptian-born is indeed an honest and accurate term, the very-misleading term is just born in Egypt. Egyptian-born indicates that she was born and spent years in the country, in which it's the truth, she lived for twenty-one years in Egypt. Meanwhile the intro you are supporting doesn't even imply that she was raised there or had any links to her homeland. Fragrant Peony (talk) 01:19, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Did Dalida hold Egyptian citizenship? No. So, what is the issue? In the lead, it is clearly cited "born in Egypt", after her Italian-French nationalities.

Many Egyptian fans have been constantly and systematically deleting Dalida's real and factual nationalities on the Wikipedia pages in Arabic, on blogs, articles and newspapers, and writing the false statement she was Egyptian.

This is not just biased, it is a lie and a misinformation. Also I find quite laughable to read about 'Western-biased' and a request to make the article 'as neutral as possible'. So in the Arabic pages of Dalida it is fine to keep a lie, but in the English version, we need to twist the reality according to your preference? 79.66.203.92 (talk) 01:49, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Your fan-POV isn't the reality, they are literally debunked in her famous My beautiful Homeland song. Go edit the Arabic page, this is English Wikipedia for starters, which is a separate thing. Dalida changed her name to an Egyptian one, only called Egypt her homeland, so yes as per the article's main template, it's indeed a fan-POV which doesn't honestly represent the actual person. Your edit history alone is a literal proof for that, so indeed not a neutral POV. Dalida couldn't even apply for Egyptian citizenship because it was unsupported by the law, it was her homeland regardless, which she documented in her several patriotic songs dedicated for Egypt. Fragrant Peony (talk) 02:14, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

You cannot point to one song and say that it shows what her nationality is. That would be a violation of WP:No original research. Binksternet (talk) 02:18, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

I am not a fan-POV. I am an editor on Wikipedia. Like it or not! Also you can't see my full edit history when the editor is not registered! I also find rather tenuous you mention a song as a proof of your logic. I could literally post dozens of interviews of Dalida, in which she calls Italy her homeland. But these are not sources. This is a fan approach. Several patriotic songs? Please. She sang just 5 songs in Egyptian! 79.66.203.92 (talk) 02:28, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Well, there's a reason they are all patriotic songs! And the so not part of her identity, Egypt, is the most place she made patriotism songs about. I guess why.... 02:39, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Patriotic songs: a new frontier in selecting and listing sources on Wikipedia! Without mentioning, Dalida recorded these songs also in other languages.--79.66.203.92 (talk) 02:52, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Oh, yes, She being an Egyptian-born is a true fact. She celebrating Egypt as her homeland is a true fact. She changing her Italian name to an Egyptian name is a true fact. Thankfully all those facts are documented both in her French cinema movie, and her own family's documentary on her youth, that they surprisingly called it Dalida The Egyptian. lol Fragrant Peony (talk) 02:59, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Fragrant Peony, Dalida's brother being involved with the documentary does not make her more Egyptian. Your assertion that "Many Western fans have been constantly and systematically deleting her Egyptian link" is flat wrong. Many editors here have been summarizing the many sources, which is the correct procedure for Wikipedia. You appear to be enamoured with one source only: the documentary. You cited www.bozar.be but that is just a promotional blurb written by the documentary filmmakers, and cannot be considered a neutral summary. Binksternet (talk) 02:13, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Wow, and her songs are unreliable too! You keep denying her own Egyptian identity and the fact that she called Egypt her homeland, not just a country "she was born in". Honestly all I can say is; again the page's main template regarding this article being unrealistic/a fan-POV is spot on. Thank you and have a great day. 02:20, 26 January 2023 (UTC) Fragrant Peony (talk) 02:20, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Again, I am highlighting the page's non-neutrality message and praising the moderator who had put it because the article is doesn't even describe her link to her homeland [as per her own words].[12]

"This article may be written from a fan's point of view, rather than a neutral point of view. Please clean it up to conform to a higher standard of quality, and to make it neutral in tone. - September 2021"

Sources that further emphasises Dalida's the documented link to her homeland as part of her identity that she also documented in her Patriotic-songs:

"Dalida was an Egyptian/Italian/French singer and actress..." Ruby Boukabou (2019). Art Lover's Guide to Paris, page 215.

"Egyptian/French popular singer. Dalida was born in Cairo of Italian parents..." Jennifer Uglow (1991). Macmillan Dictionary of Women's Biography, page 145.

Egypt-born Italian singer and actress who acquired French citizenship upon marriage in 1961." Juliana Tzvetkova (2017). Pop Culture in Europe, page 26.

Looking back at the troubled life of legendary Egyptian-born crossover star Dalida. - The National

Fragrant Peony (talk) 01:55, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Stop restating your arguments as if they are new ones. If you want to change the standing consensus, you can list your sources at the new discussion. However, any kind of cherry-picking of sources as you have shown above will not fully represent Dalida's life. What is needed is a large-scale assessment of every existing source, with more weight given to the more respected sources. That is how we do it on Wikipedia. Binksternet (talk) 02:16, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

As stated I am highlighting the fact that this is a just fan-POV article, totally ignoring her Egyptian identity, as if her documented songs don't even exist or she just lied to millions of people in those patriotic songs of hers. Fragrant Peony (talk) 02:27, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

You keep repeating the fact that the article is tagged as having a "fan's point of view", as if that is part of the nationality issue. It is not. You can ask Nikkimaria who placed that tag, but I bet Nikkimaria put it there because back in September 2021, the biography held far too many details, with fan-centric wording such as a section header declaring "The new Dalida is born!" Binksternet (talk) 02:29, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Yep, the tag wasn't added for any reason related to nationality (which I have no particular opinion on without looking deeper). Nikkimaria (talk) 03:10, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

As a matter of fact, Binksternet and IP (surprisingly) are the ones stating that this convo is about a "nationality issue", my whole discussion was about her Egyptian identity. I actually reverted someone who put Egypt in her nationality, my whole discussion was regarding her being so vocal about her Egyptian patriotism, and that she was born and lived for twenty-one years in Egypt. So Egyptian-born was indeed an honest and accurate term, it indicates that she was born and spent years in the country, meanwhile the other phrase doesn't imply that she was even raised there. Thank you. Fragrant Peony (talk) 03:26, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

'Born in Egypt' and 'Egyptian born' have the same meaning. You want simply to put Egyptian before French-Italian to mislead the reader. You write: 'my whole discussion was regarding her being so vocal about her Egyptian patriotism'. When? What? According to whom? According to you, after listening the five songs Dalida recorded in Egyptian and which anyway she recorded in other languages!? Dalida was never Egyptian. She never hold Egyptian citizenship. She barely speak Arabic. Her culture was not Egyptian. She was born in Egypt. And it is clearly stated multiple times in the page! 79.66.203.92 (talk) 15:14, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

She didn't barely speak Arabic, she spoke Egyptian Arabic well and even acted in Egyptian movies. You just proved that you don't even understand the language you are talking about, lol. And stop deflecting, you can go talk to her own brother then and rather get mad at him that he documented his sister as Dalida The Egyptian inorder to idicate her massive link to her homeland, go call the producers and her family members. I rather trust her own family regarding which place she called home, than strangers. End of story!

Fragrant Peony (talk) 16:57, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

You are like a broken record! The title of a documentary is not a proof she was Egyptian or that she held Egyptian citizenship! Her 'massive' link to Egypt was practically inexistent after she moved to France. In fact she recorded the five songs in Egyptian Arabic only two decades later in her career! 79.66.203.92 (talk) 17:37, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

No one even spoke about legal papers, you don't even know the discussion you are in, and are trying to deflect with something that no one said. I actually reverted someone who put it in her nationality section, so as a hardcore-fan stop wasting my time when you don't even know what is the discussion about.

Fragrant Peony (talk) 18:28, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

I've semi-protected the page to prevent drive-by editors from changing this without discussion. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 17:04, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Dear @Fragrant Peony,

I allow myself to intervene because I spent a lot of time, in particular with @Binksternet to intervene and to bring factual elements to this article. The banner still present indicating that the article must be reviewed, had been there well before our interventions. Under my impulse, the introduction was completely revised, and at the time only contained a tissue of lies. The article in its entirety remains to be reviewed.

Dalida the Egyptian?

First of all (and all solid sources have been provided), Dalida's nationality is French or even Italian-French if we disregard certain formalities (having tacitly never lost Italian nationality in fact). Dalida was never Egyptian in any way. This is why the formula "Egyptian-born, Italian-French" is simply incorrect. This implies that Dalida would have Egyptian origins. In this sense, her Italian, Calabrian parents would have had great difficulty in providing her with Egyptian origins, although she was born in Egypt. Not to mention that none of them had Egyptian nationality ! (As a reminder, the definition of "origins" is as follows: Family, environment to which one goes back; ascendants, ancestors of someone.)

Did Dalida speak Egyptian Arabic?

Dalida only knew a few words of Arabic that she had learned during her childhood in Cairo. Although she sang many songs in Arabic, it was only for the needs of her last film in 1986 that Dalida, with a teacher, learned to speak Arabic fluently.

Dalida, a strong link with Egypt?

Unquestionably, Dalida had a very strong bond with Egypt. Country her childhood, she lived there for almost 21 years. She said: "I feel completely French, and the nostalgia that I have in my heart of my childhood, it's normal, it's Egypt. Italy, on the other hand, is a country where I simply went to sing. I'm not so attached to it. I like Italy because my father and my mother are Italian, but I'm much more attached to France and Egypt." However, the term used is that of Egyptian "roots", but not of origins. A term that can be defined as a deep attachment to a place, a milieu, a group. Which is not substantially the same thing. The proof is that although Dalida may well have Italian origins, the fact remains that she reserves a much greater attachment to Egypt; this after France.

All these allegations are given by Dalida in person in a program on French television dated November 16, 1986. Nevertheless, if we want to hold an objective discourse, we must also contextualize things. At that time, Dalida no longer sold as many records as before in France. Disco has become corny and the younger generations are gaining momentum. Nevertheless, Dalida sells in the USSR. Since 1977, and her first recordings in Arabic (21 years after her debut in song), Dalida has forged a link with the Arab world despite the fact that her French records were released there much earlier. "Salma ya salama" was really the trigger. As for Italy, since leaving the Barclay record company, Dalida hasn't had success there since the early 1970s. Dalida's career gradually turned towards the Middle East. During the 80s, she obtained the golden butterfly for the most popular singer in Turkey. Her success was partly made there. Dalida even intends in 1989 to produce a musical comedy entitled "Cleopatra". In short, we must understand that we are at this time in another period of the career of Dalida. And this must be taken into account.

Thus, I would be grateful if you would take the said elements into account. Elenora.C (talk) 16:30, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

I actually agree with your excellent summary Elenora.C, I have never watched her identify as an Italian woman. I also agree that the correct term is French singer, who was born and raised in Egypt; since those are the two countries she felt attached to. Fragrant Peony (talk) 17:27, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

It's not to contradict you, but Dalida also identified as Italian, she even sings it. This is why I specified the context of this 1986 interview. The term "Italo-French singer and actress, born in Egypt" is the most correct because this is factual, having no negation of her Egyptian "roots". If you want to detail this in more depth in the body of the article it's up to you. But the introduction must be the most parting, and the most effective, it is not a long unfolding of what is happening in the article. However, I am not opposed to a formula of this type "Italo-French singer and actress, who was born and raised in Egypt". Elenora.C (talk) 18:38, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

I was referring to her statement to the French audience:

"I feel completely French, and the nostalgia that I have in my heart of my childhood, it's normal, it's Egypt.

Italy, on the other hand, is a country where I simply went to sing. I'm not so attached to it. I like Italy because my father and my mother are Italian, but I'm much more attached to France and Egypt."

Her own statement does indeed describe her best. I also referred to the fact that the article doesn't even highlight her massive link to Egypt, it was more than a country she was just born in [intro suggestion].

Fragrant Peony (talk) 19:19, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Egypt indeed represents a part of her life. But the introduction is not an unfolding of the body of the article. Elenora.C (talk) 20:18, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

@Elenora.C I don't agree with what you wrote regarding the fact "The proof is that although Dalida may well have Italian origins, the fact remains that she reserves a much greater attachment to Egypt; this after France." In my previous comments I suggested to avoid picking and choosing extracts from Dalida's interviews in French. In the late '60 Dalida was often in Italy and in the Italian tv, winning competitions and topping the charts. And she was constantly remarking that "she was Calabrese, she FELT Italian". But from the '70 the Italian music discography sector started to be hostile (for different reasons) towards her. She started to resent that and clearly she decided to distance from Italy (not just because Tenco's death). In an interview in Italian, she said that Italian discography wanted to make her record music she didn't like. Also she felt clearly appreciated and revered in France. Regarding the Italian public, although could appreciate an artist, at the same time the public could also be extremely critical. An example: Raffaella Carrà, an Italian show-woman, famous both in Italy and in Spain, she used to say that while Spain revered her (she received two Order of Civil Merit medals), in Italy she never get a prize. This is clearly typical of Italians to appreciate an artist, but at the same time to be harshly critical and keep her/him grounded! Obviously Dalida decided to stay there where she was idolised. But I am not sure that helped in the long term, when she felt overwhelmed in the golden retreat in Montmartre! 80.182.171.56 (talk) 18:56, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Hi,

I agree with you on what you say, but you must have misread me... I specified the context when Dalida was interviewed. I explained that there has been a sort of "divorce" between Dalida and her Italian public since the beginning of the 1970s. But the fact remains that for the launch of Dalida, French and international newspapers presented the budding singer as Miss Egypt. She has always kept a link with Egypt. Nevertheless, she obviously remains Italian-French. Dalida has never denied her Italian origins. I hope my answer is clear. I make sure to stay as factual as possible. Elenora.C (talk) 13:07, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

Please, Make changes

Change "was an Italian singer and actress, naturalized French, born in Egypt" to "was an Egyptian-born, Italian-French singer and actress".

Also, there is inconsistency in the info box. Under Born, it says she was born as "Iolanda Cristina Gigliotti" but in the info box under Other Names, it says "Yolanda Gigliotti" (which was not how her name was spelled, it was spelled as "Iolanda"), please change it to "Iolanda Gigliotti".

I think this inconsistency will only causes more confusion for fans who visit the article. 74.15.254.221 (talk) 05:52, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Not doing this ~ there has been a great deal of discussion about how to define Dalida in the initial sentence; I'm not certain that the current phrasing is what has been the long-term consensus, but I am certain that what you ~ IP 74.14... ~ want it changed to is contrary to both consensus and well-written English. Happy days, ~ Lindsay^Hello 17:47, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Okay, I get it. At least change the name in the infobox. Please change "Yolanda Gigliotti" under other names to "Iolanda Gigliotti". The reason is that her name was stylized as "Iolanda" (as her parents were Italian, not spaniards) not "Yolanda". Please change it. Also under born it says "Iolanda Cristina Gigliotti' not Yolanda and it does not make any sense that her name is spelled different under born.74.15.254.221 (talk) 00:56, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

The point is that it is "other names" ~ and Iolanda and Yolanda are different. I assume someone put Yolanda where they did as they had come across one or more places her name was given as Yolanda, so without knowing that isn't the case, i won't remove it (though another editor may see things differently). If it helps, think of it like this: We give her name as Iolanda and, where we use a name, that's what we use; all the infobox is doing is giving a variant ~ which may well have been barely used or incorrect ~ for completeness' sake. I can't see that causing any confusion, it merely makes us encyclopaedic. Happy days, ~ Lindsay^Hello 06:16, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

No one called her "Yolanda" as far as I'm concerned. Also, there was a mispelling of "Dalida" writen as "Dalila". No one called her, no source encyclopedic or not refered to her as "Dalila" this is likely a typo written by another editor. Maybe I'm asking for too much, but it's an observation. 74.15.254.221 (talk) 07:12, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

For the record, the wording I was happy with years ago read "...was a French singer and actress born in Egypt to Italian parents..." She was never entitled to Egyptian nationality - I have researched the relevant law - and she rose to fame after moving to France. She acquired French nationality by marriage, but never lost her Italian nationality. Incidentally, there is a similar problem with Audrey Hepburn, who was born in Belgium to a Dutch mother and and a British father, but was never entitled to Belgian or Dutch nationality. LynwoodF (talk) 09:29, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree, LynwoodF, that is the reading i recall agreement on. I've only just come in an on-line, but i may take a look at the history in a little bit and see at what point it was changed from that and if there was consensus for a change and, depending on what i find, change it back. That version was the end result of a large discussion (and edit war), and i'd be surprised if we had consensus to do away with it. Happy days, ~ Lindsay^Hello 12:31, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

There we go, i've checked and can see no consensus to change away from the agreed wording, merely changed back and forth by drive-by editors. I have reverted to what was there, and added a couple of invisible comments asking for it not to be changed without discussion ~ not that i expect them to have any effect, but i put them there in the hope that they do Happy days, ~ Lindsay^Hello 18:18, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, LindsayH, for handling that. I agree that sooner or later someone will come along and change it again, but we can usually just revert. People keep on changing Audrey Hepburn and I am one of several who restore the agreed wording. I am old now and I rarely get there first these days, but I keep an eye on both these artcles. LynwoodF (talk) 21:15, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

It has been largely discussed (see poll above) with proofs that Dalida had Italian citizenship all her life and acquired French citizenship also later in life. Writing she was just born to Italian parents it is half true. Why then not writing Italian-French? I find this persistency really bizarre, considering that in the French and Italian page of Dalida in wikipedia (the countries where she was most famous) it is clearly stated she was Italian, natualized French.Cutio.mer (talk) 21:19, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

I have reverted again, to the version which was agreed above. If Cutio mer or any other editor disagrees, please feel free to re-open the discussion ~ though it was pretty comprehensive above ~ and try to see if consensus has changed. Happy days, ~ Lindsay^Hello 21:25, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

I have reverted again to the version which was agreed on the poll (unlike what you write), confirmed by the different sources cited above and reinforced by the fact the definition of Dalida as 'Italian naturalised French' is used on Wikipedia French and Italian pages. Please, feel free to re-open a new discussion, if you have sources that disprove Dalida Italian citizenship (from birth to death). Happy days! Cutio.mer (talk) 00:36, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

The poll result was divided, and did not indicate a change away from the previous consensus which was "French singer and actress born in Egypt to Italian parents." Binksternet (talk) 14:10, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Please correct misspelling

In the introduction, it says "Featuring spoken word by Alain Delon". This is incorrect. "Word" should be plural : "Words". It should not be singular. Please fix it and change it to "Featuring spoken words by Alain Delon".76.64.181.63 (talk) 08:01, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

The idiomatic phrase in English is "spoken word", thus it is correct and doesn't need changing. Happy days, ~ Lindsay^Hello 08:09, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

What is the Idiom? I don't understand what "Spoken Word" as an idion means. Why would it be used in this context? 76.64.181.63 (talk) 18:41, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

See Spoken word. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 20:27, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree that "spoken word" is idiomatic and is appropriate in this context. Moreover, "spoken words" would not be normal English in this particular phrase. One could say, "words spoken by (whoever)" and that would be perfectly normal English, although not particularly appropriate in this context. LynwoodF (talk) 14:10, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Nickname

According to French souces, and based on what I heard in a video, Dalida was nicknamed Dalì, maybe someone should add it under Other Names. 76.64.181.63 (talk) 18:41, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

If you provide the sources, the nickname could be added. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 20:28, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Dalila?

What is Dalila? Why is it under Other Names? May I request it be removed? If not, please provide a source for this name. 76.64.181.63 (talk) 02:28, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Oh, for example, this source in the article. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 02:35, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Okay but what about Yolanda Gigliotti Where is the source for that? 76.64.181.63 (talk) 02:37, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

everywhere? Born "Iolanda", took on the French spelling when she was naturalized. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 03:03, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

That's not a source. The French spelling of the name is actually "Yolande" with an E. I speak some French, I know. Then in that case it should be changed to "Yolande Gigliotti". Or just "Yolande" 76.64.181.63 (talk) 05:23, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

So fix it. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 05:48, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

With proper sources, of course. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 17:20, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Nationality wording (again)

Looking at the way her nationality is presented in the lead, I’ve been wondering for a while if the wording could be made a bit more precise and simultaneously more fluid than it currently sounds. Using “born in Egypt to Italian parents”, in my opinion, downplays both Egypt—which not only was her birth country, but also the one she was raised in—and her Italian nationality—which she held for at least half of her life, possibly all of it if I understood the previous discussions correctly—especially considering that she (also) called herself Italian and her Italian heritage played a role in shaping her career; she was more than just the daughter of two Italians. So I was thinking something along the lines of “Italian-French singer and actress who was born and raised in Egypt”. Opinions? ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 20:54, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Alternatively, to strictly follow legal nationality/citizenship, we could use a note: “Italian-French singer and actress” ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 21:14, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

This article is highly misleading. She was born in Egypt and acquired the Italian citizenship at birth due to her both parents. She became French at 27 via marriage.

You can’t say she is French by Italian parents… very misleading.

‘She was Italian naturalised French’

Also, please look at old videos of her in France when she wa already French. She said she was Italian….

please correct this highly misleading article!! 92.233.66.42 (talk) 19:46, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Just boldly edited the lead. Any disagreements can be taken here. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 20:32, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Notes