Talk:Elgin Marbles

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Recent statement by Turkey

Hello all,

I have removed the recent statement by Turkey from the lead as it is not sufficiently important and Wikipedia is not news. The statement appears in a summary form under the "Legality of removal from Athens" section, where it is probably worth mentioning as a tangential fact. Please note that Turkey is not a party to the dispute between Greece and the UK, and the article already states that no one has found the original firman in the Turkish archives. Therefore the Turkish statement says nothing new except that Turkey supports the return of the marbles to Greece. There are certified copies of the firmans in Italian and English translation in the archives and the issue among scholars is the interpretation of them. Wikipedia is not the place to record every statement by every country on the issue.

Also please note that Turkey should be given its common name in English WP:Commonname There is no need the call it "The Republic of Turkiye", just as we don't call Germany "The Federal Republic of Germany" every time we refer to it in an article. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 04:38, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Aemilius Adolphin: You actually forgot to remove the aforementioned recently added content from the lead. I went ahead and removed it myself; per your reasoning above, as well as per Andreas Mastronikolis' comment in User talk:SilentResident § Your edit to Elgin Marbles page, who introduced it in the lead. Demetrios1993 (talk) 13:04, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just my two cents on the statement by Aemilius Adolphin: There are certified copies of the firmans in Italian and English translation in the archives and the issue among scholars is the interpretation of them.: The Italian translation of the Sultan's firman was not certified and is unsigned, thus making its authenticity questionable among scholars and experts on the matter. Editors are welcome to expand on and add these details about the translation missing any signatures and other means of certification to the article if they deem them to be noteworthy, always with the necessary sources explicitly mentioning that the document was unsigned. I myself was unaware of this detail until after a british scholar brought it up, here. [1]. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 20:52, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am not aware of any reputable scholars who state that the two firmans are definitely forgeries. There aren't signed because they are Italian translations of the original which was given to the Voivode of Athens, but the copies indicate where the seal and the signature appear (all copies were obviously handwritten in those days). The original was given to the Voivode of Athens by the Sultan's official courrier, Mehemmed Raschid Aga. There are several eyewitnesses, including some hostile to Elgin, who confirm that the Sultan's courrier handed over the firman to the Voivode and stayed in Athens to ensure that the order was obeyed. So are we to believe that Elgin somehow forged all the correspondence between the British embassy and the Porte regarding the negotiations over the firmans and somehow induced the Sultan's courrier to deliver the forgeries, but decided to give the forgeries ambiguous wording which scholars still debate today rather than simply making it a clear order to allow Elgin to do what he wants with the marbles? All this is explained in Lord Elgin’s firman by Dyfri Williams (which is cited in the article.) Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 22:22, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's interesting. Good to know. Thanks. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 12:55, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Aemilius Adolphin

Turkey is a party of the dispute given it is a state which inherited the legacy of the Ottoman Empire whose uthorities allegedly allowed Elgin Marbles to be moved. If the country's senior official declares there is no evidence of that, it is significant.

It may be essential to include the sources below:

Smith, Helena. "Turkey rejects claim Lord Elgin had permission to take Parthenon marbles". The Guardian. Retrieved 5 September 2024.

"Zeynep Boz: "If the English have a firman, show it"". Athens News. Retrieved 5 September 2024. 51.155.213.25 (talk) 23:20, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Acquisition and contemporary reaction

Hello all

I have summarised repeated information about the acquisition of the marbles and moved it to the Acquisitions section.

Happy to discuss Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 04:17, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Damage

Hello all

I have moved the section on the damage to the Parthenon and other buildings during the Greek war of independence to the article on the Parthenon. Given that this was after Elgin removed the marbles it isn't very relevant to the Elgin Marbles which is the focus of this article.

Happy to discuss Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 05:26, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have also moved the section on damage to the Parthenon in the 20th and 21st century to the article on the Parthenon for the same reason. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 06:48, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]