Talk:French Republican calendar

1800 not a Gregorian leap year

Does that cause something to be knocked a day off? The French Revolurionary calendar started in 1792, and Gregorian wasn't officially restored until 1806. Carlm0404 (talk) 07:24, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

This has gone unanswered for over a year, and likely won’t be read, but the answer is that the Republican Calendar is independent of the Georgian, so the leap years, or lack thereof, in one calendar have no effect on the other. —Nike (talk) 12:30, 15 February 2023 (UTC) (Décade III Sextidi 26 Pluviôse an CCXXXI à 5h 26m t.m.P.)

Elvish

Is it worth mentioning, under "cultural references", that most of the Elvish month names given by Tolkien in Appendix B are translations of the Republican names? But perhaps it's coincidental. —Tamfang (talk) 18:18, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

I guess not, that's OR/synthesis. —Tamfang (talk) 22:54, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

I’d say not OR/synthesis, it has been described and discussed in Jim Allan (ed.) (1978), An Introduction to Elvish, p. 151. — Mithrennaith (talk) 11:31, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Lead mentions religious reasons, source, discussion in body?

Doug Weller talk 19:26, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure what this talk section is for/ about. It would seem to be suggesting that the reasons for the new calendar replacing a religious one are not present in the body of the article, but the Rural calender section in the article specifically talks of the calendar in a religious context:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Republican_calendar#Rural_calendar

The Catholic Church used a calendar of saints, which named each day of the year after an associated saint. To reduce the influence of the Church, Fabre d'Églantine introduced a Rural Calendar in which each day of the year had a unique name associated with the rural economy, stated to correspond to the time of year

does this answer your point??? Scarabocchio (talk) 19:23, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

@Scarabocchio that happened but the section doesn’t say it was a reason for the change. It was something done after the new calendar so far as I know. Doug Weller talk 20:27, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

The section seems quite clear to me .. the principle that informed and guided the design, as stated by one of the key persons to implement it, was to reduce the influence of the Church.

The priests assigned the commemoration of a so-called saint to each day of the year: this catalogue exhibited neither utility nor method; it was a collection of lies, of deceit or of charlatanism.
We thought that the nation, after having kicked out this canonised mob from its calendar, must replace it with the objects that make up the true riches of the nation.
...
So we have arranged in the column of each month, the names of the real treasures of the rural economy.

I'm not sure how this could be any clearer. If you still see a problem with this being described as 'partly for religous reasons' please expand on your argument, please spell it out because I really do not see what possible objection you can have here!! Scarabocchio (talk) 15:33, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

@Doug Weller Please keep your replies in this section so we can have a dialogue. My comment above explains clearly why there was a religious component to the decision of how the new calendar was implemented. Whether other predecessor concepts didn't have the religious component that the FRC did is irrelevent. The actual FRC did, and we have the actual words of one of the primary creators of the calendar explictly stating this. I have not, yet, seen anything at all from you to explain why you think that this can be set aside. Scarabocchio (talk) 16:07, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

Does nobody know about Google? http://prairial.free.fr/index.php?lien=cal_presenatusconsulte1805 https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6438979z.texteImage https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k487479.image —Nike (talk) 09:50, 15 February 2023 (UTC) (Décade III Sextidi 26 Pluviôse an CCXXXI à 4h 16m t.m.P.)

@Nike Have you read my posts below? They're the result of Google searches. Thanks though, that's interesting. Doug Weller talk 10:06, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with using Google to find sources. The tool used is irrelevant, so long as the sourced are valid. I linked to original sources. I posted links to Gallica. There’s another at JSTOR. What is wrong with these? The French Wikipedia also gives some sources. To keep deleting sourced material is vandalism, and will be treated as such. —Nike (talk) 12:09, 15 February 2023 (UTC) (Décade III Sextidi 26 Pluviôse an CCXXXI à 5h 12m 73s t.m.P.)

@Nike Not a good idea to call a content dispute vandalism. It's not. I use Google all the time for sources. You still haven't read what I've said. We need sources explicitly linking a religious motivation and have none. But if you'd read what I wrote below you'd know I seem to have found one. using Google. Doug Weller talk 12:14, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

And if you’d look at the sources given, you will clearly see that they explicitly state what is disputed. It was not hard to find. There is no good reason to delete it. —-Nike (talk) 13:02, 15 February 2023 (UTC) (Décade III Sextidi 26 Pluviôse an CCXXXI à 5h 49m t.m.P.)

@Nike ok, show me a source you've read that makes that link. Recall I'm no longer disputing this but suggesting additions and a clear source. Doug Weller talk 13:11, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Just read the sources I provided.

« Il fut imaginé dans la vue de donner aux Français un calendrier purement civil, et qui, n'étant subordonné aux pratiques d'aucun culte, convînt également à tous. »

« Cette distribution qui, ne concordant avec les cultes d’aucune secte, déroute les gens superstitieux, écarte les préjugés, est la plus convenable à une nation qui veut tolérer toutes les religions, sans permettre pour aucune des pratiques extérieures. »

« Cette opération faite, les moyens de la consolider seront de tenir strictement la main à ce que la superstition rusée n’abuse point, par leur application trop étendue, des principes consacrés par la dernière loi sur la liberté des cultes, et pour cela il faut avoir grand soin d’établir des fêtes décadaires, et de faire concorder les jours de foires et de marchés avec le nouveau calendrier. »

«La loi sur la liberté des cultes n’en tolère l’exercice que dans des lieux particuliers 3. Si on laissait la faculté de louer les anciens temples pour les employer à cet usage 4, le culte reprendrait inévitablement un caractère de publicité qu’il ne faut pas permettre, et cette attention est trop importante, pour fermer les yeux sur les suites dangereuse de l’apathie ou de l’excessive tolérance. »

—Nike (talk) 14:56, 15 February 2023 (UTC) (Décade III Sextidi 26 Pluviôse an CCXXXI à 6h 28m décimales t.m.P.)

I found a good source, albeit not contemporary.

• Les séquelles de la déchristianisation de l'an II : l'héritage laïc sous le Consulat et l'Empire
• Xavier Maréchaux
• Dans Napoleonica. La Revue 2012/3 (N° 15),

--Nike (talk) 16:17, 15 February 2023 (UTC) (Décade III Sextidi 26 Pluviôse an CCXXXI à 6^h 84^m t.m.P.)

How about my sources? Doug Weller talk 16:36, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

And as I said, it’s not enough to add it to the lead, we should have a section on the motivations to comply with WP:LEAD. Doug Weller talk 19:34, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

We don’t need a new section, just something in an existing section, such as “History.” But do as you wish. You might want to mention the intent of décadis and revolutionary holidays to replace Sundays and Catholic holidays. They even tried to make a new religion around décadis. In the years VII and VIII, marriages could only be conducted on décadis .People were supposed to name their children after calendar days, instead of saints. E.g., a girl born on this day might be named Hazel. Of course, under Napoleon all this reversed so as to reinstall the Church. —Nike (talk) 00:13, 16 February 2023 (UTC) (Décade III Septidi 27 Pluviôse l’an CCXXXI à 14^m t.m.P., jour du noisetier.)

I'm not doing anything - as I'm dying too soon I'm working on articles of more interest. And I do believe that we need to use English sources where possible as most of our readers won't read French (you know I imagine how bad English speaking countries are with other languages). And I've provided those sources below. Doug Weller talk 09:46, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Well, it is the French calendar. Most of my sources go back to the Revolution. But they’re ready to read in Google translate. I would, of course, use English translations in the text of the article.

"The law on freedom of worship tolerates its exercise only in particular places. If we left the faculty of renting the old temples to use them for this purpose, worship would inevitably regain a public character that should not be allowed, and this attention is too important, to close our eyes to the dangerous consequences of apathy or excessive tolerance.”

—Nike (talk) 21:15, 16 February 2023 (UTC) (Décade III Septidi 27 Pluviôse l‘an CCXXXI à 8^h 91^m décimales t.m.P.)

How about https://www.cairn-int.info/journal-napoleonica-la-revue-2012-3-page-4.htm

—Nike (talk) 21:29, 16 February 2023 (UTC) (Décade III Septidi 27 Pluviôse l‘an CCXXXI à 9^h 1^m décimales t.m.P.)

- Secularization: its goal is to eradicate Christian references in French society. This process takes several forms: substitution of the republican calendar with the Gregorian calendar, establishment of a new civil status held by mayors and no longer the parish priests, change of place names with the main purpose of removing Christian and feudal references, use of revolutionary first names without reference to the saints of the Gregorian calendar, secular education removed from the hands of the clergy.

(Décade III Septidi 27 Pluviôse l‘an CCXXXI à 9h 7m 69s décimales t.m.P.) Nike (talk) 21:38, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

According to Alphonse Aulard, the establishment of the Republican calendar in October 1793 was "the most anti-Christian measure" of the Convention [13]. Richard Cobb outbids by seeing the new calendar as a "sensational innovation" that constitutes an attack on the customs and habits of the French and an attempt to destroy Catholicism [14]. It is true that if the presentation of the republican calendar is part of the effort to rationalize the weights and measures inherited from the Ancien Régime - such as the implementation of the meter, kilogram and liter - also using a decimal system, the abolition of the week (and therefore Sunday) as well as the replacement of saints with names of "objects that make up true national wealth [15]", have the effect of removing any Christian reference in the measure of time.

—Nike (talk) 21:57, 16 February 2023 (UTC) (Décade III Septidi 27 Pluviôse l‘an CCXXXI à 9h 20m 87s décimales t.m.P.)

The body of the article describes not only the abolition of saints days, which should have been sufficient, but also of the Christian era, Sundays and religious holidays. Is that not enough?

(Décade III Octidi 28 Pluviôse l‘an CCXXXI à 3h 32m 86s décimales t.m.P.)

Nike (talk) 07:50, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

ok, taking this off my watch list. Doug Weller talk 09:36, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

How about this source? Revolutionary first names in Dordogne

19 Ventôse year CCXXXI, chervil day @ 4h 88m 22s PMT Nike (talk) 11:36, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Also see this about Sylvain Marechal's Almanach des Honnetes Gens which the government rejected as anti-religious

"Among these almanacs the most significant was Sylvain Marechal's Almanach des Honnetes Gens, published in I788.4 It contained the real germ of the Republican Calendar. Here appeared the year of twelve equal months with five or six complementary days (scattered through the year, however, instead of all coming together at the end), and each month divided into three decades. But the most startling innovation, at least to contemporaries, was the substitution of " hon- netes gens" for the saints of the Gregorian Calendar. The work was roundly denounced by the government, which ordered it " torn up and burned . . . as impious, sacrilegious, blasphemous, and tending to destroy religion". Such drastic action may have been some- what responsible for later almanacs being less radical, but it did not stop their publication. Since their propagandic value was soon rceognized by the Revolutionary leaders, the number increased.

In I79I the Jacobin Club offered a prize of twenty-five louis for the best patriotic almanac. Forty-two works were submitted to the judges and the prize was won by Collot d'Herbois with his Almanach du Pe're Gerard.6 The award to Collot, however, revealed the note- worthy fact that even among the Jacobins of I79I, anti-religious sentiment was not yet predominant, for his almanac retained the saints' days of the old calendar."

@Scarabocchio: let's discuss, not just revert. Doug Weller talk 15:53, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

I think I've found a source which should make you happy but have no time to do it today. If you have JSTOR access it is Making the Revolutionary Calendar Author(s): George Gordon Andrews Source: The American Historical Review , Apr., 1931, Vol. 36, No. 3 (Apr., 1931), pp. 515- 532. Doug Weller talk 15:56, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

Please keep your replies in the main thread Scarabocchio (talk) 16:13, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

@Scarabocchio that ship has sailed, it wouldn't make sense for me to comment on material in this thread by posting in another thread. Do you agree that the material I've quoted here needs to be in someway in the article? Doug Weller talk 16:52, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

I don't think I can quote more due to copyright issues, but the article basically concludes by saying that the majority of the people didn't want a change but a "group" of zealots motivated by a desire for a more logical system and wanting to at least reduce the influence of Christianity got it adopted. Your problem seems to be an attempt to use logic to connect the dots but we don't work that way, we need sources explicitly stating that. And this should be in the body of the text with sources, summarised in the lead without sources. Doug Weller talk 16:52, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

MOS: Present

Is there guidance that explains why this article uses the past tense? Since this calendar can still be calculated and expressed, so never really ceases to be, doesn't MOS: Present mean this article (and related ones) should reflect that? I know there are carve-outs from MOS: Present for certain subjects, so I'm wondering if there is one for calendars that I missed.128.151.71.7 (talk) 13:11, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

"Napoleon declared it abolished" in 1805. Sounds pretty past tense to me. It's not in actual use today. Sure, one could calculate dates as though it were still in use, just like one can calculate Gregorian dates before 1583, or Numa Roman dates after 45 BCE, and some Trekkies use stardates. But there isn't even agreement on how Republican dates should be calculated. Originally, dates were counted from the September equinox, but some would prefer the proposed reform of year 3. I have seen at least 3 other proposed methods.

--Nike (talk) 08:25, 22 February 2023 (UTC) (L'an deux cent trente un de la République française une et indivisible le premier tridi le jour trois du mois de Pluviôse à trois heures cinquante six minutes quarante trois secondes décimales du t.m.P.)

du le mois? —Tamfang (talk) 17:41, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Pardon moi, I don’t speak French, and I was trying to imitate civil actes from the Revolution. —Nike (talk) 23:26, 22 February 2023 (UTC) (L'an deux cent trente un de la République française une et indivisible le premier tridi le jour trois du mois de Pluviôse à neuf heures huitante trois minutes cinquante un secondes décimales du t.m.P.)

I liked your previous format, eg Septidi 17 Vendémiaire an CCXXIX à 1 heure 25 minutes décimales t.m.P but miss the plants. Today is le jour de la perce-niege (literally, the plant that breaks through the snow), the day of the snowdrop. Climate change apart, how poetic and indicative that is of this time of year! Scarabocchio (talk) 11:31, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

You can see the different formats at Calendars — Decimal Time. There are Twitter bots that post the daily flowers. Nike (talk) 16:57, 23 February 2023 (UTC) (L'an deux cent trente un de la République française une et indivisible le premier quartidi le jour quatre du mois de Pluviôse à sept heures douze minutes cinquante deux secondes décimales du t.m.P.)

I added rural plant days. You can check it any day at Republican Date Happy Spinach Day.

L 'an deux cent trente un de la République française une et indivisible le second sextidi le jour seize du mois de Ventôse, le jour de l’Épinard à une heure soixante dix minutes sept secondes décimales du t.m.P. Nike (talk) 01:36, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

You are quite mad :-) but you are not alone. See also the Spinach entry, 16 Ventôse, here: User:Scarabocchio/calendar#Winter/3:_Ventôse Scarabocchio (talk) 08:27, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

You should post daily tweets about them, like 8th other revolutionaries.

Trois heures quatre vingt sept minutes cinquante deux secondes décimales du t.m.P. Nike (talk) 09:11, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

There are, alas, too many days without quirky articles. Scarabocchio (talk) 09:26, 7 March 2023 (UTC) / 17 Ventôse CCXXXI (FRC)

You should see all the tweets the other revolutionaries post every day. 16 Ventôse year CCXXXI, spinach day @ 7^h 18^m 91^s PMT Nike (talk) 17:08, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

I am currently dying inside from Wheezy, Sneezy, Freezy, Slippy, Drippy, Nippy, Showery, Flowery, Bowery, Hoppy, Croppy, and Poppy DragonMaster9817 (talk) 16:33, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Je vous pardonne puisque – ahem. I forgive you because you did not write "d'l'mois" as many ignorant people might do. —Tamfang (talk) 22:43, 23 February 2023 (UTC)