Talk:Preseli Mountains

Prescelly

Is it worth mentioning the English language misspelling as Prescelly Hills ? --Welshie 21:13, 2004 Sep 21 (UTC)

Anglicisation rather than "misspelling". Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:38, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Dolerite (bluestone) source

Possible source for discrepancies in the composition of dolerite between Preselli and Stonehenge artifacts and standing stones, from bog-standard Google search for 'dolerite wales'. Preseli dolerite bluestones PDF Note that the source does not come to any conclusions at the beginning of the report and I do not have time to read it through. Also it is not clear that this is scientific consensus. Once these caveats have been dealt with, it hopefully will prove useful. Anarchangel (talk) 21:57, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Book: Battle of the Preselau

I read this book by Hefin Wyn (published locally, 2008) which goes into great detail about the events of 1946-48 regarding the efforts to prevent the mountains from becoming a permanent military training ground. Is it worth expanding this page to incorporate a little of the information, as it was a notable period in the history of the Preselis. I am happy to do this if fellow Wikipedians think it's a good idea. Tony Holkham (talk) 20:36, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

As a rider to this, I cannot find any evidence for the statement that "Its continued use after the war was the subject of protest by Plaid Cymru." Tony Holkham (talk) 21:06, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

I think your analysis is correct. I have a recollection that there is a plaque on one of the Preseli peaks summarising the fight to save the land but which makes no mention of any political party involvement.  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   21:12, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I'll revise the paragraph, ref the book, and see if there's any response. I'm going to read the book again and try to distill it into a paragraph or two, if that's possible! Do you know where the plaque is? It'd be nice to have a pic on the page. Tony Holkham (talk) 21:28, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

I have found this link which provides a transcription of the plaque and locates it. It looks a reliable enough site to rely on. Regards  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   18:26, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Brilliant, thanks. You know, I've walked past that plaque a few times and never read it - always looking at insects.Tony Holkham (talk) 20:54, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

There's a good photo of the plaque here. I assume we can't use it...? And, a review of the book by BBC Cymru here. If no-one here can give a translation, Google translate might give the gist of it. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:04, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Looks like the picture is copyright. No matter, I can take one myself and upload it. I'm not sure about the BBC review - is this normally done for a book that is only a reference and doesn't have its own page? Tony Holkham (talk) 21:31, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

I put the text into Google translate. What came out wasn't pretty... Tony Holkham (talk) 21:37, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

It never is, but it may give some hints about its general content and approach. Much better to find a Welsh speaker, of course - try Wikipedia talk:Welsh Wikipedians' notice board. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:54, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Preparation for reorganising the article

I'm breaking the article into sections, albeit short ones for now. Hopefully it will be helpful for expanding the article in due course. Tony Holkham (talk) 12:08, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

List of sites

Not sure what purpose the "non-notable" list of sites Preseli Hills#Sacred and historic sites serves. There are citations and external refs which go into detail about some of these sites, so do we need the three-column list at all?

Also, not sure why the columns don't line up. Tony Holkham (talk) 12:49, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Tried prose, and trimmed the list, but difficult to read, so will try tabulating Tony Holkham (talk) 10:34, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Mast

My copy of OS 1 to 25000 show it being on the south eastern slopes of Crugiau Dwy, height 359 metres. However as it labels it a Television Station rather than a Transmitting Station or mast, I cannot vouch for the source. Nice place to work though, if it was a TV station! SovalValtos (talk) 16:36, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

You're right. My 1:50000 (Landranger) doesn't name the peak. I've an old map of Pembrokeshire with no legend (maybe 1960s) that calls the more southerly of the two unnamed peaks Foel Dyrch. An internet search shows up several sites that refer to Crugiau Dwy (two cairns) at SN17143118. It is just just a transmitting station with mast, though; I'm not even sure it's manned as I spoke to a man quite by chance a couple of years ago who had come from England to do some maintenance work on it. Said it was the best site on his list. Cheers Tony Holkham (talk) 19:10, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

I cannot even confirm from reading the 1:25000 that Crugiau Dwy , is the mountain's name , it just seems likely as the lettering is alongside. . Only one cairn is labelled on Crugiau Dwy, another is labelled on Foel Dyrch. My assumption is that the mast is not manned, I was just ammused at the wording on OS calling it a TV station. SovalValtos (talk) 19:35, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

I found these

• [1]
• [2]
• [3]

so pretty sure we have the right name. The height (359m) agrees (the mast seems to be at 340m). Might go one day and have a look at the cairns, though they've been messed up by the look of it.

Tony Holkham (talk) 19:50, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Interesting that there is also a mast at Woodstock in the southern Preseli by the B4329 mountain road, but I can't find it on any OS maps. I don't know how old it is or what it's called. Might be worth adding if it can be found. Tony Holkham (talk) 09:37, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Shown as a single symbol on my 1:50000 and as two separate ones on 1:25000 at SN 02885 26175 and SN 02995 26220. They are on the eastern slopes of the hill with 194 m trig point, and north of Woodstock east farm. I have a good collection of 2005 maps if you need things checked. SovalValtos (talk) 09:52, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Another at SM 9156 2953 but the article would not benefit from a forest of masts! SovalValtos (talk) 09:58, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Old Maps

Maybe not directly useful as is, but worth having to hand for reference.

OS old series 1 63360 40

Its chums in the same category of Commons can be useful off topic. SovalValtos (talk) 15:22, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Table link

As the default is with the table collapsed, it is not immediately obvious that it exists. Users of Wikipedia who are au fait with such things, hopefully will not be offended by pointing it out. I at least have not come across such a feature before, or rather, if I have, I have missed it's import and passed it by. It was only on looking for the images that my watchlist told me that had been added, that I then found the drop down list SovalValtos (talk) 11:29, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Fair point. I didn't want to clutter up the page if people weren't interested in the peaks. Thanks for the sensible edit. I hope to be able to take the missing pics myself and fill in the notes soon. Tony Holkham (talk) 10:42, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Commons link

There is a Commons link, but it produces zero results. Tony Holkham (Talk) 17:16, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

 Fixed Tony Holkham (Talk) 17:19, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Extent of hills

It is currently asserted that the range extends from Dinas Island to Frenni Fach - by what relatable source? Might some sources exclude Frenni Fawr and Freni Fach as being separate? And Dinas Island, really? Geopersona (talk) 19:19, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

I don't know the answer to this. Perhaps Mynydd Dinas is meant at the western end. At the eastern end, Frenni Fach seems logical to me, looking at the OS, but I'm not a geographer or geologist. Tony Holkham (Talk) 19:43, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

The modern OS in one place on their website centres it thus; [4]. Other OS maps over the years have used spread out text to show the range of the range, but one's assumption is that the intention is to show the extent extends beyond the lettering. One lightweight source [5] gives Foel Drygarn as being at the eastern end. I suspect sources could be found for a variety of inclusions and exclusions so maybe it would be better to pre-empt attempts at precise Preselis by using a more general phrase. Centred on Foel Feddau might help. The references at the foot of this page [6] could be of use for more than just this question.SovalValtos (talk) 01:00, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

Thanks SV; your common sense usually prevails. I have been bold and simplified it. Tony Holkham (Talk) 09:11, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

Thanks guys - these things can be tricky, such names are often applied loosely which can be beneficial until you want to tie their extent down. Geopersona (talk) 20:14, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

I think TH has hit the spot for now and no one is fighting to include Dinas Island. When extents are wanted to be tied down it will be for a reason such as altitude, water catchment area, park area, availability of grants, geology, agricultural use etc. Those all will have more easily defined boundaries than the generic term.SovalValtos (talk) 23:12, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

Geology

I've added a section attending to aspects of the hills' geology - it ought probably to tie in more readily with the material on 'bluestones' noted in the prehistory section. Note that bluestones is a term deployed by archaeologists and others rather than geologists, based on the appearance of a diverse range of rocks in different situations - see the WP page on bluestones. British geologists would use the term dolerite for the intrusive igneous rocks involved here, Americans might say 'diabase' whist others prefer the term microgabbro - BGS use 'dolerite and 'microgabbro' of these rocks whilst I've include all three! cheers Geopersona (talk) 20:12, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

Geopersona - thanks; good to have your knowledgeable input. T. Tony Holkham (Talk) 21:21, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

Air crash site image

I found this image

Wartime aircraft crash site - geograph.org.uk - 463118

which might be useful in the future. I think it would be undue to use unless more text was added for it to illustrate. Thoughts?SovalValtos (talk) 19:13, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Interesting. I'll have a look in BNA for a news article. Tony Holkham (Talk) 21:56, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Can't find anything on BNA but possibly not reported during the war. BBC report here and local report here. This Dyfed Archaeo report shows more. IWM memorial here. Tony Holkham (Talk) 22:13, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Finally, a report in this book. That's all for now. Tony Holkham (Talk) 22:29, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Interesting sources, particularly the book [7] with its other crashes at Goodwick and Carn Ingli etc. My instinct is that there should not be detailed coverage in this article. Looking at WP:FAs such as Mendip Hills upholds that view. It would be easy to get sidetracked into fatal road accidents, hikers dying from exposure or people drowning. An air-crash fan might like to make a list article of crashes in Pembrokeshire. Nonetheless some suitable text could be worthwhile.SovalValtos (talk) 07:39, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

I share your instinct, SV, and I don't think the image is particularly informative. The part the Preselis played in WW2 could be expanded sometime, though the history of the surrounding villages probably covers it, e.g. troops in Crymych. I'm happy if you want to add anything, though. T. Tony Holkham (Talk) 09:04, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Cycling and horse-riding 'permitted'?

The text currently says that both are permitted whereas paragliding is not - the last prohibition on the last sport is referenced but the first two are not. I can imagine that horseriding may well be permitted but not so sure about mountain-biking. Both types of travel are of course authorised by law along the few bridleways which thread their way across these hills but that is statutory access and so differs from 'permission'. It may be the case that either or both are 'tolerated' - but 'permitted'? Useful to have a good reference for this - and it is unlikely to be provided by a mountain biking magazine which are often cavalier (forgive the potential pun) in these matters! cheers Geopersona (talk) 09:20, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

Added official PCC page on cycle trails, and deleted horse riding as I cannot find a ref at the moment. Tony Holkham (Talk) 09:48, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks Tony. I began to add more material on access then that evolved into a wider overhaul of the article's structure starting with an attempt to reallocate the contents of 'Today' which, though it appears in numerous articles, does not help the reader find the info they may be looking for. I've also recognised the bluestone material as a particular and significant aspect of the locality's prehistory. I imagine that you and others will find ways to improve on what I've left. thanks Geopersona (talk) 10:44, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

Waun Mawn

This [8] gives a grid ref SN08393403 which should be useful.SovalValtos (talk) 04:10, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I've added it. There's a programme about it tonight. Tony Holkham (Talk) 10:42, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

This has been added overnight [9] User:Tony Holkham.SovalValtos (talk) 10:46, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

Intestine war

Re Samuel Lewis quote: It seems there is such a thing as intestine war, though the expression is now obsolete. It means war within borders, or civil war. Tony Holkham (Talk) 21:57, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

This [10] was the link I tried to include in my edit summary a few moments ago to show that 'intestine' was not a transcription error by Hicks.SovalValtos (talk) 22:08, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Thanks guys - who knew?! I'd come across the War of Jenkin's Ear but hadn't imagined that other body parts might come into play now and again - though I now see there's also a Battle of the Belly River. An understandable edit by JRPG - what errors might each of us have made by 'correcting' something apparently obvious? cheers Geopersona (talk) 07:16, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Mynydd Bach - incorrect image / reference

There are two hills similarly named Mynydd Bach, very near to each other in the Preselis. The Mynydd-bach with a high point of 374m, is North of Myndd Bach with a high point of 293m (as shown on summit photo on wiki). Mynydd-bach (374m) has no trig point or other summit features and is not referred to in the citation referenced. 2A00:23C7:468E:DF01:A5B2:1D6B:6C53:6724 (talk) 00:34, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

Confirmed, thanks. Notes applied to the more southerly Mynydd-Bach at 293m, so deleted with pic. Cannot find a pic of the higher point, though. There are dozens of pics on commons some of which may show the higher point. I may have taken one myself, so will look. It is on the Golden Road. Tony Holkham (Talk) 10:36, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

Hills/mountains

Strictly speaking, the plural of mynydd is mynyddoedd, so the first amendment was correct. While the Preselis are topographically hills (the OS decided that), the definition of a hill has changed over time. The Preselis have always been known as mountains and in fact are still called mountain (singular) on the latest OS maps and referred to as mountains by Visit Pembrokeshire, by local people, and others. I'm not being pedantic, I hope, but I don't see a problem with the use of the word mountain in the article, while the page title can be hills. There is a hill in Shropshire called Sweeney Mountain and I'm sure there are other examples around. I don't feel strongly either way, but I'm happier to leave mountains in rather than change every 'mountain' to 'hill'. Tony Holkham (talk) 10:54, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Well, feel free to revert me if you think the IP's version is more accurate. I was guided by the Welsh version, but I may have misunderstood the subtleties of the wording, and I don't really "get" the whole hills/mountains thing! The whole article needs a thorough going-over, of course - it's too short for one thing (there must be much more that can be said), some of the article links don't work, etc. etc. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:17, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Cheers, I'll give the whole thing some thought when I've a bit more time. As you say, there's a lot more that could go in... Tony Holkham (talk) 11:55, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Hi all, I would like to revert the article name to Preseli Mountains (as seems to be the old consensus here) but wanted to post my reasoning here first in case there are any objections. Preselli Hills is a neologism that only really seems to feature in tourist literature. As stated above, "Preselli Mountains" is accepted by the OS, while a quick Bing serach also shows that most of the sites using "The Preseli Hills" (Visit Pembrokshire, Bluestones Wales) formerly use "The Preseli Hills & Mountains" before abbreviating. Those sites using "Preseli Mountains" (The Outdoor Guide, discoveringbritain.org, Wales Online) use Preseli Mountains alone.

While I think it's clear that "Preseli Mountains" is the common English name as per WP:TITLE protocol (specifically the naturalness criterium), there are two futher points which should also be considered. Firstly, there are many UK geographically features named "Mountain" that do not technically qualify as mountains by the UK definition, but are given this name on their Wikipedia Article for common understanding. Secondly, in translating Welsh toponyms, "Mountain" has long been understood as the appropriate synonym of the word "Mynydd" (which may perhaps be more literally translated as "uplands", e.g. Caerphilly Mountain) regardless of the features prominence.

Happy to discuss further, Cymrogogoch (talk) 17:55, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Interesting that you should raise this topic after 10 years. I was always of the opinion that the name should be Mountains, but I don't think I would change it after all this time, though I wouldn't object if it was changed. Just my two penn'orth. Tony Holkham (Talk) 18:28, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks Tony. Cymrogogoch (talk) 20:38, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Renamed article following lack of oppostion for the reasons given above (common name) Cymrogogoch (talk) 18:45, 19 May 2023 (UTC)