Talk:Xenophanes

(Archived discussion from Wikipedia:WikiProject Philosophy)

Untitled

• Peer review Xenophanes.
  • I spent some time copyediting and NPOVing this article, but it still seems a bit "rah rah" to me. For example, it claims that Xenophanes influenced the work of Karl Popper, and that he anticipated the discovery that water originally covered the earth's surface. Unfortunately, I don't know much about the Presocratics, so if someone could peer review this I'd appreciate it. — Adam Conover † 01:39, Apr 12, 2004 (UTC)
  • Volunteers:
  • I'm not sure what "rah rah" exactly means, but as for Xenophanes' influence on Popper, see e.g. the latter's famous Lucas Prize acceptance speech, K.R. Popper (1982), "Duldsamkeit und intellektuelle Verantwortlichkeit", in: Toleranz. Zur Verleihung des Dr.-Leopold-Lucas-Preises, D. Stuhlmacher and L. Abramovski (eds.), Tübingen: Attempto, 173-185. That water once covered the earth Xenophanes deducts from finding fossils of sea creatures on mountains; this is Diels-Kranz fr. A 33 (or Kirk-Raven 184), Hippol. Ref. I 14, a very well-known reference indeed. Clossius 07:59, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)
  • Thanks, Clossius. Your references have convinced me. (By "rah-rah", I meant that it seemed like at least one author of the article really, really liked Xenophanes, to the point where the article was approaching advocacy rather than information. I wanted to make sure that the ideas attributed to him didn't just come from hero-worship.) Thanks for your help. — Adam Conover † 08:13, Apr 12, 2004 (UTC)
  • This might have easily been me, as I really like X :-) (although, e.g., not so much as the author of the Popper entry, which is peer reviewed, likes Popper...). It's still important, I think, to point at changes of the perception of different philosophers, because especially in this area, you so easily get outdated lore (Xenophanes as an Eleatic, e.g.) if you look at older encyclopedias. Incidentally, I'm planning to expand the X. article, especially as regards philosophy of religion, but this is a tricky task and will take time. Clossius 12:10, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)
  • Thanks Clossius, that clears everything up. I'm closing this task, and moving this discussion to Talk:Xenophanes. Thanks again! — Adam Conover † 19:30, Apr 12, 2004 (UTC)

Bookish Superiority

In the Editions section, it is stated that the book by Diels, Kranz is superior to the book by Kirk, Raven. I have seen this same comment in other Pre-Socratic articles. It is most probably a correct evaluation. However, isn't it a personal opinion? In addition, it is frustrating because the book by Diels, Kranz is generally unavailable and has not been translated into English.Lestrade 15:24, 1 January 2006 (UTC)Lestrade

Well, just because an edition is hard to find (I wonder where; is there really any College library that doesn't have a DK edn.?), one shouldn't hush up that it is the betrer one, no? :-) Of course, "superior" is POVish, yet it is clearly the case on a scholarly level. And by serious reasons, such as that Kirk & Raven have a lens: They are interested in one aspect of the Presocratics, and that is their contribution to the philosophy of science. Thus, their edn. leaves out key fragments - and certainly testimonia. In the end, Kirk & Raven is a student edition, as it was meant (DK was meant that way also, incidentally, but it wound up to be the standard scholarly edn.) Clossius 07:23, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Xenophanes and Monotheism

(moved here from User talk:Clossius)

I wonder if there is some way to qualify the attribution of monotheism to Xenophanes, beyond "often seen as". I'm not a Hellenist, so I hope you'll bear with me, but my sketchy survey suggests that it's not an uncontroversial claim. And, at least for a civilian like me, an assertion hard to reconcile with the language of "gods" plural, and X's emphasis on the mischaracterization of the gods, rather than their un-reality. What do you think? Quihana 19:00, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, I would say that

• very few scholars dispute the claim that Xenophanes was a monotheist - it would be very difficult, too, seeing that key thoughts of his revolve about one God
• some do, of course, but that's to be expected on any scholarly subect (I actually only know of one serious essay that makes the claim that he wasn't a monotheist, and that one has not been followed up in the scholarly discourse at all but was mostly dismissed as conspiracy-theoretical)
• the reception of X. as the (not even "a") first monotheist is not really disputed by anyone

This is why I think that you can't call this claim "controversial", other than that about any assertion is. For scholarly background of the debate, I'd like to refer to the respective essays by Otto Kaiser and by Drechsler and Kattel in the biblio., though they are in German.

Contents-wise, of course there are some fragments by Xenophanes on "Gods", but the point is that there are some on God. On the one fragment you mention, please note that this is indeed about the images of the Gods (and the construction of Gods by humans, in which he is not the first, but pretty early and very important); it does not imply that they exist at all. I actually find this rather consistent with the monotheism view.

In short, for a short entry, almost a stub, that leaves so many important things out, I think to say that he was one of the first monotheists is modest and appropriate enough. Any reference to this being doubted is, in my opinion, misleading, because as far as I can see, nobody really does that. But if I should be wrong and there is indeed an at least noticable corpus of literature that says he wasn't, then of course that should be put in here. Clossius 19:23, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I should think that given the very limited information we have from and about X. that it would be very difficult to make that kind of claim with certainty. Aristotle seems to have not found anything like a comprehensive theology or metaphysics in the presumably more complete material available at the time of his writing. X.'s thoughts clearly are revolving around something quite different from the standard cosmology, but it seems not at all certain that whatever "it" was was monotheism per se. By the by, when you name him as the undisputed first monotheist, I'm guessing you mean the first with a lasting legacy in western culture -- otherwise I think the award would go to Akhnaten (14th C.)

I defer to your knowledge of the scholarly literature, but the secondary material that I've (admittedly very quickly) surveyed is not nearly so uniform. The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, linked to by the Wikipedia page, is one instance of a more skeptical reading.

If we have fragments which refer to "gods" and some that refer to "god" -- is there in fact more than one that uses that word in the singular? -- it does not necessarily follow that the singular trumps the plural. I note that not every use of the plural is in the context of deriding others' foolish notions. And isn't X. skeptical that any certain knowledge of the gods is available to humans at all? (I'm following Fränkel's analysis of Fragment 34 on that one.)

If no one doubts the ascription, I have to say I find that confusing. Again, I'm not a Hellenist, but reading through the tiny bits that we have from X., and the few references by his near contemporaries, seems to leave more room for speculation than solid ground for assertion. I can understand naming him as a precursor to monotheistic thought, but anything more than that does seem like an overly broad and reductionist claim. If an intimate scholarly knowledge is generally compelling of the conclusion that X. was claiming "no gods but God", well, I guess the Deity must really be in the details.

After writing the above I hunted up a copy of Lesher's translation and commentary, as it was referenced on the Wikipedia page as the best english edition. His discussion of Fragment 23 begins: "The ideal commentary on fragment 23 would do three things: establish whether Xenophanes here espoused monotheism...[I'm eliding the second and third points, not at issue here]. But since the centuries have seen a plethora of stoutly argued and generally incompatible answers on each of these points, the ideal commentary may be out of reach." He goes on to rehearse the arguments on both sides and comes down himself against a conclusion of monotheism. But regardless of Lesher's conclusion it seems clear that there is, and has been, controversy on this issue.

Have I marshalled enough here to soften your stance at all?

Quihana

Yes you have - not in contents, but to the extent that the Wikipedia should indeed reflect the discourse as it presents itself to the informed outsider of a given field. I doesn't help much to say things here about the level of Lesher's critical annotations (rather than edition), or about that of the Stanford entry on Xenophanes, which is not really up to scratch as regards the state of the art of research. But you are probably right that over the years (indeed millennia), there has been more dispute on the matter than it has appeared in what I have said, and that may indeed reflect my own view of the matter.

A few factual points: As I'm sure you know, Aristotle is not a good witness for Xenophanes - "his" testimona are mostly apocryphal, he himself did have a faultly base of literature; and one may also argue that he understood him out of context. We do have several fragments referring to One God, and these are clearly, I think, the more important ones; factually, I think that when X. talks about Gods in another than a conventional sense (i.e., images that mortals make etc.), what is meant are local Gods and the like, which remain "in place", but not the One Creator and - literally - Mover and Shaker. Of course the singular does trump the plural, because that is the "innovation", if you will; the new and interesting thought. You are to a good extent right concerning the scepticism, but X. is the first to say that that shouldn't prevent you from having opinions - opinions that actually matter. (This is what Popper, for all that's worth, mainly got out of X - and incidentally, it is totally in opposite of the philosophy on which the Wikipedia is based. :-))

As regards the fragments, I simply don't share your view, but I guess that's a matter of judgment (and probably of philosophical background); for me they are quite sufficient and clear. Once again, I would like to draw your attention to Kaiser (for a theological discussion) and Drechsler & Kattel (for a philosophical one), as these essays integrate both Anglo-American and German (plus some other, such as French) scholarship on the subject, which to me seems crucial on this topic and which usually isn't done.

So, in sum, I think that a stubby article that doesn't highlight X's monotheism (and not precursordom), yet that focuses on the criticism, doesn't really give appropriate information on the subject matter. On the other hand, the discussion here has gotten to a point where the level of scholarship needed by far exceeds what is possible on Wikipedia. And indeed, you have demonstrated that there are some serious people who actually dispute the Monotheism claim. So, from my side, you can indeed add a comment to that extend to the entry, and I certainly won't revert or correct it.

Clossius 07:42, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

I thank you. I've made an addition that I hope is judicious -- see if you think it needs tweaking.

Quihana 19:17, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Difficult to say, especially because I don't think new fragments would add anything. But as I said... Clossius 20:08, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Writing for future generations

I put in a reference to my own book here. If someone wants to replace it with a more suitable one I shan't mind a bit! Andrew Dalby 16:00, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I think this is really great, and we really need more scholars to take the guts and do this if this ever should become a valuable encyclopedia! Many thanks! Clossius 17:49, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

he made a break but not completely

Xenophanes is created as one of the philosophers who completely de-anthropomorphsize the gods. In reality however, instead of projecting many different human qualities onto may gods, he simply projected a more specific person onto a god. Xenopahenes simply projects a philosopher onto a god. Xenophanes' god is mentally based, just, and omnipotent. Xenophanes is getting closer, but has not completely de-anthropomorphsized god (assuming this is even possible). He has made a break from Hesiod's mythology but he is still projecting human qualites onto god(s).

Closer? Closer to what? Your personal image of God? Anyway, this is all as OR as it can be. Clossius 09:02, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Xenophanes is the philosopher who wrote: "There is one god. He is the greatest among gods and men. But he is not, in any way, like mortals in body or in mind." He is different from the concept of the Hebrew God, the Saracen Allah, the Indian Brahma, and the Pharmigian Arnz. Although he resides on a cloud, and is reported to wear a long, grey beard, he has few other humanoid characteristics, and comes closer to being an abstract, de-anthropomorphized (without an "s") mental conception or figment. "He remains at all times in one place. He doesn't move, even an inch. For him to change position at different times is simply not proper." As a result, he, himself, cannot get closer to anything. Xenophanes deity is almost purely a mere empty thought in Xenophanes's mind.Lestrade 12:10, 16 September 2006 (UTC)Lestrade

This is right as an answer to the first comment, but the last sentence is surely wrong. (There are some nice theological essays on X. in the references, precisely on that topic.) If transcendence and emptiness were the same, one could argue that, but they aren't and thus one can't. Clossius 13:18, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Isn't there a crater on the moon called Xenophanes?

At about 57.3 N and 82.0 W (Lunar co-ordinates) there is a crater on the moon called Xenophanes. Shouldn't we put a disambiguation notice at the top of this page? --216.106.109.111 14:07, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Xenophane and Xenophon

Perhaps the heading should include a disambiguation to differentiate between Xenophane and Xenophon, which seems very much alike

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Influence on Eleatics

This article says, "Later philosophers such as the Eleatics and the Pyrrhonists also saw Xenophanes as the founder of their doctrines, and interpreted his work in terms of those doctrines, although modern scholarship disputes these claims." But the linked-to article on the Eleatics says, "Although many philosophers throughout history have interpreted the doctrines of the Eleatics as responses to Xenophanes, Heraclitus, or Pythagoras, there is no broad agreement or direct evidence of any influence or direct response, although many theories have been put forth interpreting the eleatic in terms of these philosopher." Article shouldn't assert that the Eleatics saw Xenophanes as the founder of their doctrines if there is no evidence of any direct influence. Philgoetz (talk) 15:30, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Xenophanes as Monotheist

The following content, which I added here, was removed by Apaugasma:

Due to his belief that “God is one”, and his attack on Homer's portrayal of anthropomorphic gods in poems such as the Iliad and the Odyssey, Xenophanes was universally considered a monotheist by ancient interpreters, a belief shared in modern times.

with the edit summary: "rv block evasion: 86.187.173.219 is the same user as 2A04:4A43:4D4F:E306:F9D5:63CA:4619:E70F (2A04:4A43:4D00:0:0:0:0:0/40), who is currently blocked for disruptive editing (including edit warring); even in the article body, it would need proper context on theology in early Greek philosophy (the concept of monotheism is ahistorical here)

References

I believe this content is important, relevant and adequately sourced, and should be incorporated (somehow) into the article. (That this content was first added by a blocked user is irrelevant since I've "adopted" it). I'm not sure why monotheism should be considered to be "ahistorical here", but in any case many scholars consider Xenophanes to have been a monotheist (i.e. that he believed in one god), as the many cited sources clearly attest. Although I think the "context" was reasonably appropriate, I'm willing to consider suggestions on how this content might be presented more appropriately. Paul August ☎ 14:36, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes, the subject of Xenophanes and monotheism is an important one that should be covered in this article. However, I am suspicious about the way it is worded here. First, there's the incomplete, inaccurate, and frankly tendentious quotation of Diels-Kranz B23 as "God is one". The full fragment in fact reads One god greatest among gods and men, not at all like mortals in body or in thought (εἷς θεός, ἔν τε θεοῖσι καὶ ἀνθρώποισι μέγιστος, οὔτι δέμας θνητοῖσιν ὁμοίιος οὐδὲ νόημα, translation by Lesher 2019) Observe what Lesher 2019, one of the foremost experts on Xenophanes today, writes about it:

Although the remark has often been read as a pioneering expression of monotheism, this reading is made problematic by the nearby reference to ‘gods’ in the plural in the first line and the possibility that Xenophanes sought to highlight not the one god but rather the one greatest god (cf. Homer, Iliad 12, 243 for the use of ‘one’ (Greek heis) reinforcing a superlative).

In his lead, Lesher 2019 calls Xenophanes' theology a partial advance toward monotheism. McKirahan 2011, another prominent expert on the presocratics, does interpret B23 as indicating monotheism, but duly mentions in his footnote However, the phrase is taken by many to show that Xenophanes was not a monotheist but believed that one of the gods is supreme to the others. That's a far cry from the 'universally regarded as a monotheist in modern times' proposed here.

Second, the claim that he was 'universally considered a monotheist by ancient interpreters' is also seriously problematic without context. Several presocratics hinted at the existence of an abstract and divine first principle steering and guiding all things (especially in the form of an intellect acting upon things by thought, see McKirahan 2011), but strict monotheism as we now know it (especially in the sense of claiming the non-existence of other divine entities apart from the One, and in the sense of regarding belief in such entities as blasphemy) did not in fact exist in the Greek tradition before the first Jewish Hellenistic philosophers such as Aristobulus (2nd century BCE) and Philo of Alexandria (c. 20 BCE – c. 50 CE). These Jewish thinkers were often attracted to philosophy precisely because the philosophers too had rejected traditional polytheism. But with Aristobolus and Philo also begins the monotheist interpretation (often taking the form of doxography) of by then already ancient philosophers like Xenophanes, Anaxagoras, or Plato. Yes, 'ancient' commentators regarded various 'ancient' philosophers as monotheists (what Morgan 2000 says about this is correct), but the former 'ancient' we're talking about here are the late ancient religio-philosophical thinkers (coming after Philo, beginning in earnest only with Plotinus and the early Church Fathers, c. 700 years after Xenophanes). These habitually projected their own Jewish, Christian or pagan (often Neoplatonic) monotheism on Plato and the presocratics (the locus classicus is the 2nd-century Middle Platonist Numenius of Apamea's remark, "What is Plato but Moses speaking Attic Greek?"; see further, e.g., Athanassiadi & Frede 1999). We should mention this in our article, but not in a way that suggests that these ancient interpretations were accurate.

This tradition of interpretation (mediated by the translation into Arabic of Greek and Syriac doxographical sources) continued and in fact strengthened in the Islamic period, where it was common place to characterize ancient Greek philosophers as pure monotheists (ḥunafā’) who were already actively propagating the core Islamic concept of tawhid (see, e.g., Wakelnig 2015). The user who added this content appears to be editing from an Islamist perspective, and seems to be picking up on this traditional Islamic view. But we can't just adopt medieval Islamic historiography of philosophy; we need to follow modern scholars, who place presocratic theology in its own historical context.

One thing that is completely alien to this context is the "belief" in (one) God: Xenophanes may have reasoned (cf. McKirahan 2011) that there must be only one divine entity that was completely different from human beings or anything known to them, but to him this was not at all a question of belief, which is rather a typical construct of Abrahamic religions. In short, we need this to be written by someone who doesn't start from a religious apologetic agenda, and who either already is familiar with the reliable sources or is willing to look at a broad range of them and represent them in their own terms (I suggest starting with Lesher 2019). ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 20:08, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

• Athanassiadi, Polymnia; Frede, Michael, eds. (1999). Pagan Monotheism in Late Antiquity. Oxford: Clarendon Press.
• Lesher, James (2019). "Xenophanes". In Zalta, Edward N. (ed.). Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.
• Wakelnig, Elvira (2015). "Greek Sages on the Tawḥīd: Ancient Philosophy in Accord with the Islamic Doctrine of the Oneness of God" (PDF). Studia graeco-arabica. 5: 205–245.

Just seen the interesting 2006 discussion #Xenophanes and Monotheism above. What they're missing, but is in fact well explained in our current article (Xenophanes#Legacy), is that Xenophanes' proto-monotheism was also a proto-pantheism (though as McKirahan 2011 rightfully mentions, working out the details of such theisms is not something a philosopher in Xenophanes' time was likely to do). The actual information in our article isn't too bad really, though it deserves to be mentioned much earlier, with some more elaboration and context, and it should also be summarized in the lead (as it apparently was in 2006). ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 22:07, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

The Visit of Xenophanes to Mosul (Moussel or Mousil)

It is well established, to the ancient history of Mosul, that Xenophanes had visited Mosul, he gave it the name of (Misselah). This name was also called by the (Assyrian historians, post the common era), of the few remaining Assyrians. BUT, I cannot find a source to confirm this. However, if the whole notion is not true, so where did the Name of Ancient Mosul (Misselah) come from.

If this visit was considered true, presumed true and it was taken for granted -that had been conveyed from generation to generation- then would it be true that Xenophanes might have been affected or influenced by the Jewish people in Mosul whom founded Mosul after the total destruction of the ancient city of Nineveh (bear in mind that the Israelis had been brought to Nineveh in 718 BC by the Assyrians) and he, Xenophanes, espoused the faith of the only One God? or, (Could he be a prophet that distinguished between the knowledge that we learnt in everyday life or by studying and the faith. Otherwise, where did he come with the idea of faith in the only One God from, or, the supreme One God that is Omnipotent, and can does things by his mind)?

I would be grateful to you or to anyone who could help me find any clue that Xenophanes had visited Misselah, or, if Xenophanes had actually mentioned the town of Misselah in anyway? thank you. 185.239.178.145 (talk) 11:52, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

Anthropomorphism as projection

The infobox characterizes his criticism of religion as utilizing the concept of projection. Aside from worries about anachronism - he lived long before Freud, is projection the concept involved in anthropomorphizing? In one sense I get it, projecting human qualities onto a non-human figure. On another I don't, projection is as I understand something like blaming others for what you did before they can blame you, making it seem stale when they inevitably do. Rather like inb4. In that sense of course, it seems little to do with Xenophanes. Yet it seems the more usual sense of the term. Why not, say, "criticism of anthropomorphic gods" as short enough to fit enough in the navbox but less ambiguous? Cake (talk) 20:07, 21 April 2023 (UTC)